An Interview with Dick Walker
When E. Richard Walker was appointed as the District's first Federal Public Defender in 1971, the lawyers in the United States Attorney's office were understangably apprehensive about how he and his newly created office might seek to disrupt their mission of prosecuting federal crimes. Shortly after his appointment, Walker sat down with the four Assistant U.S. Attorneys in the district and explained that while his job was to provide his clients the best posssible defense, he recognized that the most effective way to do that was to establish and maintain a relationship of trust and confidence with opposing counsel and the court. It was more than a speech. In the following months and years, the federal prosecutors of the district came to learn that Walker valued his working realtionship with them and that he would never deceive or mislead them. As will be clear from reading the following interview, Walker never has been one to mince words. He will tell anyone at any time exactly what he thinks. But he and the lawyers he hired to staff his office always dealt openly and honestly with the U.S. Attorney's office and the court during the years that he served as Federal Defender. It is as a direct result of his efforts and practices that the Defender's office in the Eastern District of California to this day enjoys a working relationship with the U.S. Attorney's office as favorable as in any other district in the country. That is Dick Walker's legacy, and this is his story.
Historical Society Board Member Cliff Tedmon (left) interviewed Dick Walker (right) recently at Walker's home in Washington State.
1 INTERVIEW OF E. RICHARD WALKER 2 ---oOo--- 3 MR. TEDMON: Date is Tuesday, July 30th. The 4 year is 2002. This is an interview being conducted 5 on behalf of the Historical Society for the United 6 States District Court, Eastern District of 7 California. 8 We're here today to interview 9 Mr. E. Richard Walker, the first federal defender 10 appointed to the United States District Court for 11 the Eastern District of California. The interviewer 12 is Clifford E. Tedmon, a member of the Historical 13 Society. 14 Q. BY MR. TEDMON: Dick, would you state your 15 full name, please. 16 A. My full name is Elzie, E-l-z-i-e, 17 Richard Walker. I go by E. Richard Walker, and most 18 people call me Dick. 19 Q. Okay. And would you tell us where were you 20 born: City, county, state. 21 A. I was born in Elma, Washington, E-l-m-a, Grays 22 Harbor County, October 26, 1931. 23 Q. And would you tell us in your own words a 24 little bit about your family. For example, your 25 grandparents' names, your father and mother, 1 |
1 brothers and sisters, and any influential relatives 2 you might have had. 3 A. My grandfather on the Walker side was George. 4 Tell you the truth, I don't remember Grandma's 5 name. He was a foreman for Simpson Logging Company 6 here on the Olympic Peninsula. 7 My grandmother's name was Nellie Fry. She'd 8 remarried. Fry was dead when I was born, and he -- 9 my step-grandfather was named Farnsworth. My 10 mother's name was Minnie. And my dad's name was 11 Elzie Hubert Walker. 12 And my dad was a jippo logger, jippo meaning 13 that he did small operations on his own and had a 14 CAT and truck and so forth, Caterpillar and truck. 15 So he did small logging operations most of his 16 life. Actually worked on the Grand Cooley Dam with 17 his Caterpillar with a contract with the government 18 when they were building in eastern Washington. 19 My brothers and sisters are dead. I had two 20 sisters. Hazel was the oldest, Florence, and then 21 my brother Kenneth. 22 Q. And how about influential relatives, people 23 that might have had an influence in your life who 24 were related to you. Might have influenced your 25 choice of occupation, school, or anything like 2 |
1 that. 2 A. Actually, I didn't have any. I didn't have 3 any that had any influence. I always wanted to be a 4 lawyer since I was a little kid. I don't know why. 5 There were no professional people in my family. My 6 sister Florence went to college, but she and I were 7 the only persons that went to college and university 8 from the family. I didn't have any uncles or 9 relatives that were influential in terms of my 10 wishing to be a lawyer. 11 Q. In your grammar school, high school days, did 12 any of that help you in forming this interest to be 13 a lawyer? 14 A. No, just always wanted to be a lawyer. I 15 don't know why. 16 Q. Where did you go to high school or grade 17 school? 18 A. Well, my dad was a jippo logger, so he moved 19 all over the place. I started out in grade school, 20 actually, in a little town called McCleary, which 21 was a few miles from Elma. Then I went to Elma, and 22 then we moved around. We lived in eastern 23 Washington, up in the Skagit country and so forth, 24 and actually, I ended up graduating from Elma High 25 School. 3 |
1 Q. I see. And following high school what was the 2 next step in your life? What did you do? 3 A. Well, my uncle -- I had an uncle that ran a 4 drive-in movie, in West Sacramento. And I had gone 5 down there out of high school. And I wasn't doing 6 too much, and I joined the U.S. Air Force and served 7 four years. 8 Q. What year do you recall entering the Air 9 Force? 10 A. 1949. 11 Q. 1949. And you did a full four years? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Where were your duty stations? 14 A. Well, I went to Lackland for basic training in 15 Texas, and then I was at Keesler Air Force Base for 16 a year. I went to electronics school. I was an air 17 borne radar mechanic. I had a secret 18 classification, and then I went to Naha, which is in 19 Okinawa, and I spent six months on some special 20 training in the Tokyo area doing my two-year stint 21 in Okinawa. 22 Q. Okay. Did that complete your tour of duty 23 then in four years? 24 A. I returned to California. I was at Hamilton 25 Air Force Base in Marin County. That base no longer 4 |
1 exists. And I was discharged at Hamilton Air Force 2 Base. 3 Q. Now, in fact, then, that four-year stint in 4 the military would have interrupted your educational 5 program; is that true? 6 A. Yes, but the flip side of it is I got the GI 7 Bill, so it helped me go to college. 8 Q. I see. Okay. 9 A. And actually, I started Marin Junior College 10 while I was in the Air Force. I was leaving, and I 11 was a sergeant, a staff sergeant at the time, but at 12 any rate, the sergeant that was in charge of the 13 flight area was -- had some people he wanted to 14 train so he could promote them. So he made a deal 15 with me if I showed up for roll call, I was off the 16 rest of the day. So I started Marin Junior College 17 while I was in the service. 18 Q. And you went to a major college after that? 19 A. I went one semester at Marin, then I went to 20 the University of San Francisco. 21 Q. Okay. Now, with that interruption you still 22 wanted to be a lawyer; is that correct? Was that 23 your plan going to the University of San Francisco? 24 A. Yes. This original plan was -- they had a 25 what we call a 3/3 program. You go three years and 5 |
1 then you could go into law school. 2 Q. So it wasn't necessary for you, then, to 3 graduate from USF, you just went right to law 4 school; is that right? 5 A. That's correct. Actually, I transferred, 6 because meantime I got married and financial 7 pressures, I transferred to Hastings Law School. 8 Q. Okay. And how did you do there? What 9 happened? 10 A. I attended Hastings for two years. I had an 11 illness, viral pneumonia. And I always remember 12 this, Fishbine was the doctor's name. And I was a 13 hair's breadth from being gone. 14 Q. When you say "gone," are you talking about -- 15 A. I mean gone. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. He slapped the hell out of me and said, 18 "Breathe, you son of a bitch, breathe." I'll never 19 forget that. And I did. And I'm still here. 20 Q. You sure he wasn't one of your linguistic 21 professors? 22 A. Yeah, I'll never forget that, Fishbine. Saved 23 my life. 24 Q. One of the things I'd like this tape to 25 reflect is the Walker laugh. It gets rather 6 |
1 unique. 2 Well, now, how long were you interrupted by 3 that sickness? 4 A. I think a year. 5 Q. Okay. So you lost another year in becoming a 6 lawyer. 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. What'd you do then? 9 A. Well, I got a job as -- well, there's some 10 color to this, but anyway. I'm supposed to be 11 colorful. I went to work as court crier for a U.S. 12 District Judge in the Northern District, 13 Edwin Murphy was his name. 14 Q. Uh-huh. 15 A. I used to say, "Here ye, here ye. All persons 16 having business with the Court draw near and you 17 shall be heard." I used to screw that up a lot, and 18 the judge used to say to me, "I can't wait to see 19 what you're going to say this morning." 20 Q. Stay with me Walker. I haven't heard this 21 before. 22 A. Well, there was an interesting story about the 23 judge. I picked the judge up in the morning and 24 bring him to the court; right? He died, probably of 25 a heart attack, but I don't recall. But it was very 7 |
1 sudden. 2 And I had an FBI agent knock on my door and 3 want to talk to me. And it turns out that he wanted 4 to inform me not to indicate anything about my 5 picking the judge up. It turns out that that wasn't 6 his wife, that he was living with a different lady 7 and he wasn't divorced. And they didn't want me to 8 go to the funeral and say well, you're not 9 Mrs. Murphy, because I knew the lady. 10 So that was interesting. My first 11 introduction to the court system and some liaison 12 with the FBI. 13 Q. I see. Following that rather interesting 14 incident, what did you do next? 15 A. I became a clerical aide in the U.S. Court -- 16 clerk's office for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 17 Ninth Circuit. 18 Q. Okay. What did you really do there? What did 19 you do? 20 A. Oh, I recorded things, just things of that 21 sort. Just administrative work in the office. 22 Paul O'Brien was clerk at the time. He'd been 23 in the office for 50 years and very interesting man. 24 Q. What can you tell us about him? 25 A. Well, about all I remember is that he was 8 |
1 always on the move, and he would write very short 2 letters. I learned from him to write short 3 letters. He would always say, "Regarding your 4 letter of the ninth instant," for example. He 5 wouldn't say like July 9th or something, it was 6 always the ninth. But anyway, the letters were 7 always one page or less. He was a very, very short, 8 to-the-point letter writer. 9 Q. But that did have an effect on the way you've 10 done things, then, Dick? 11 A. That's true. 12 Q. Okay. How long did that stint last? 13 A. I'm not absolutely sure. I transferred. I 14 went back to San Francisco law school rather than 15 Hastings. I was married, had financial problems. 16 And so I ended up, in effect, finishing my last 17 year, which took two years because of the -- you 18 could only take so many courses. So it took me two 19 years to finish, and I actually finished at 20 San Francisco law school, and there because of the 21 number of years I had, because I had more than 22 required, I had a Doctorate of Juris Prudence. 23 Q. I see. And following that, what was your -- 24 A. Well, summer of '60 I took the bar exam, and 25 in the meantime also I had gone to work for -- I was 9 |
1 a law clerk to the late Judge Oliver Carter from the 2 Northern District of California. 3 Q. Let me ask you this: What was the nature of 4 the law exam that you took? Would it be different 5 then than it is perhaps now? 6 A. My answer is very simplistic, I haven't the 7 slightest idea. 8 Q. Do you recall the type of exam that you 9 wrote? I mean the number of questions. 10 A. I don't remember anything about it except I 11 passed it, that's what was important at the time. 12 Q. Okay. That's fine. 13 A. No, I don't remember. It seemed to me like it 14 was, I may be in error, but it seemed like it was a 15 three-day exam or something. It was a pretty long 16 exam, I know that. I took bar review and all that, 17 of course. And read Wicks outline and things of 18 that sort. So there was a little group of us that 19 studied to prepare for the bar, but we took a bar 20 review as well as we'd put together money and bought 21 a Wicks outline, and we shared it. 22 Q. I see. Now tell us a little bit about this 23 clerk's job that you had with the district judge. 24 A. Well, it didn't mean anything to me at the 25 time. Later I come to understand the significance. 10 |
1 But the judge had civil matters that were under 2 submission for up to four years, as I recall the 3 longest one. And I wrote opinions for him on all of 4 those. Not that he signed off on the opinion, but 5 we met, and I would draft and did the opinion as a 6 practical matter. 7 And he had been criticized for procrastinating 8 on, sitting on cases that old and never -- I didn't 9 realize that that wasn't the way things were done 10 and that if you had a lawsuit, it may take four 11 years for the judge to make a decision. But in any 12 event, I realize now that for the parties and the 13 lawyers, that's a nightmare. But in any event, I 14 was with him about a year. 15 Q. Can you recall any major cases you worked on 16 or wrote? 17 A. Not really. There was one having to do with 18 land problems up in Trinity, Shasta country. I 19 mention that because I ended up back in Trinity 20 County later on. It had something to do with a damn 21 and condemnation and things of that sort. I don't 22 remember why it was in federal court, frankly. 23 Maybe the Interior Department was involved or 24 somebody, but I don't recall. That's about the only 25 thing. That's the only one that comes to mind. 11 |
1 Q. Did you feel you had a good relationship with 2 this judge? 3 A. Oh, yeah. Ollie Carter was a great guy. 4 Q. Tell us a little bit about him as a person. 5 A. Ollie Carter was a great guy. Ollie? 6 Q. Yeah. Both of them. 7 A. Well, number one, I think he was from Redding, 8 California, Shasta County. And he was just kind of 9 down-to-earth. I only stayed a year, and law clerks 10 generally stayed two. And he and I got along well. 11 He wasn't happy about my leaving after a year. I 12 did it for financial reasons, but it wasn't like we 13 parted bad company or any of that kind of thing, but 14 he would have preferred I stay on for two years. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And I left because I had a family and for 17 financial reasons, and I had a much better paying 18 offer from Western Banc Corporation, Los Angeles. 19 Q. Do you remember how much you were paid as a 20 law clerk in those days? 21 A. I think it was like six or seven hundred 22 dollars a month. And the L.A. job with Western Bank 23 was like fifteen or sixteen hundred a month. 24 Q. Okay. Was that the first major job you had, 25 then, after law school, the Western Bank job? 12 |
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Would you describe what you did there. 3 A. Well, I worked in the legal department for a 4 fellow, the guy in charge was a fellow named 5 Mitchell. The president of the corporation at the 6 time was Maurice Stans. Maury they called him or 7 sometimes referred to as Maury Snaps if you were 8 behind his back, I guess. Who later, as I recall, 9 went to prison because of the Watergate problem. 10 But it was that person. 11 And I met Nixon and some other Republican 12 persons at Stans's house. He would have some of us 13 from the legal department over for dinner. Invite 14 us out for dinner usually when there was some other 15 people he wanted us to meet, that kind of thing. 16 Not that I was a friend of Stan's or anything 17 of that sort of thing. I mean, he was one crust 18 above me. He was first class citizen, I was sort of 19 second class. I understood that. That was sort of 20 his attitude and philosophy. Probably why he got 21 into jail, actually. But in any event, they were 22 very capable, interesting men. Plus you met a lot 23 of interesting people. 24 I didn't stay too long, again, because 25 Los Angeles wasn't my cup of tea, frankly. 13 |
1 Secondly, I'm dealing with all these very 2 conservative people, and I'm about as left as you 3 can get. So philosophywise I wasn't in the same 4 ball park. 5 Q. After the bank job, what was your next 6 position? 7 A. I was Assistant U.S. Attorney, Northern 8 District, Sacramento, actually. At that time it was 9 the Northern Division of the Northern District of 10 California. 11 Q. And who were the judges at that time? 12 A. Well, that's a damn good question. 13 Sherrill Halbert, of course. You know, other than 14 Halbert -- now, MacBride wasn't appointed yet. I 15 met MacBride while he was still in the Assembly, so 16 I don't think he had been. I don't know when he got 17 appointed, but I don't believe he had been 18 appointed. Sherrill Halbert, and I don't recall. I 19 don't know if there was any other judge or not, 20 actually. Might have been just Sherrill Halbert, 21 but I don't remember. 22 I think some guy -- I don't know if you've 23 heard of these guys, but it's my recollection that 24 maybe Dick Nichols, some guy by that name or 25 Bill Shubb happened to be law clerk at the time. I 14 |
1 think, but I don't recall. It's my recollection 2 that Shubb at one time was law clerk to Halbert. 3 But I don't recall whether that's when I was in the 4 U.S. Attorney's Office or not. 5 It might have been Dick Nichols, actually. It 6 seems to me Dick Nichols was, but I'm, you know, 7 going back a ways. But it's my recollection I may 8 have met both of them as a result of them working 9 for Halbert. 10 Q. Dick, you indicated you wanted me to take a 11 little break. While you're taking that break, I'd 12 like to describe the area in which this interview is 13 being conducted. If you had to conduct an 14 interview, I can't imagine a more beautiful spot. 15 We're sitting on Dick's deck looking at the 16 gorgeous flowers around his backyard and looking at 17 this very nice home in which he lives. So I feel 18 very fortunate having had the opportunity to work at 19 this particular place at this particular time. 20 A. One thing goes for sure, I damn sure know how 21 to plant a tree, don't you think? 22 Q. I would say you did an excellent job, Dick. 23 Okay. Tell us a little bit more about your 24 work as an Assistant U.S. Attorney. Because other 25 than your clerking, that's a significant contact 15 |
1 with the judicial system. 2 A. You know, we're going back a long ways. 3 Q. Correct. 4 A. I don't remember anything particularly 5 dramatic or anything. It seems to me I handled some 6 civil matters, really. But I don't recall any 7 outstanding case. I'm trying to remember. This 8 wouldn't have been a case I handled, anyway. But it 9 seemed to me there was some major cases, but I don't 10 recall, frankly. We're going back a long ways. 11 We're back in the early '60s. So I just really 12 don't recall much about it. 13 Q. Were you able to communicate with 14 Judge Halbert on occasion? 15 A. Judge Halbert invented the back door system. 16 Of course I communicated with him. 17 Q. Okay. Would you describe that system. 18 A. Well, it's very simple, the judiciary had a 19 cozy relationship with the United States Attorney's 20 Office. Now, ultimately, in the criminal field it 21 diminished some because of the introduction of 22 Federal Defender program, but that was much later. 23 But yes, there was a certain amount of -- more so 24 than appropriate, frankly, but that's the way 25 business was done. 16 |
1 It's kind of like Judge Murphy and the FBI 2 showing up, for God's sake. I mean, at that time I 3 didn't think much of it, but now I would say well, 4 that's not quite cricket. Even though I live on 5 Cricket Lane, you know. 6 Q. Let me ask you this: It is important since 7 we're interested in your observations and your 8 thoughts. Tell us how you implemented this 9 so-called back door relationship. Did you have 10 occasion just to go sit down privately and talk to 11 the judge, or could you tell us how that came about, 12 what you did. 13 A. I didn't do anything. It was in operation 14 when I got there. Well, the judge might call you up 15 and ask you back in chambers and say you gotta do 16 this, that, or something else. 17 I don't recall. I don't have any recollection 18 of the judge coming up to the U.S. Attorney's 19 Office. I don't remember exactly whether the U.S. 20 Attorney -- seemed to me like the U.S. Attorney's 21 Office may have been one floor up. I think the 22 judges were same place they were before they moved 23 to the new building on this second floor, but I 24 don't recall that. U.S. Attorney was upstairs, I 25 think, but I don't recall exactly where the office 17 |
1 was. 2 Q. Now, was that the U.S. Attorney's Office and 3 courthouse in the Moss Building, or was that prior 4 to that? 5 A. No, we were in the John Moss Building. 6 Q. You were in the Moss Building. Now, and how 7 long did that term with the U.S. Attorney's Office 8 last? 9 A. Again, you know, I moved a lot in the first 10 stages of my career. I was only there about a year, 11 then I went to work for Senator Ed Regan, 12 Edwin Regan, who was chairman of the Senate 13 Judiciary Committee. I was appointed attorney for 14 the Senate Judiciary Committee, and actually, I 15 worked out of, mostly out of his office in 16 Weaverville. And mostly what I did was not senate 17 work. It was for the senator's business. He 18 represented, he had a contract with the Hoopa 19 Indians, for example. 20 Q. Now, that's Hoopa. Spell that, please. 21 A. H-o-o-p-a. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. In Humboldt County. I handled that account 24 and some others. 25 Q. Okay. Tell us about that. That's 18 |
1 interesting. You dealt with the Indians. 2 A. Mostly it had to do with working out problems 3 with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and things of that 4 sort. 5 Q. Now, that is an operation which always has 6 come under view ever since the old cowboy days. 7 Tell us a little bit about dealing with the Bureau 8 of Indian Affairs. 9 A. Well, they are, at that time at least, they 10 were -- I think things have changed really, but at 11 that time they were very bureaucratic and kind of 12 wanted to tell the Indians what they could do or not 13 do. The fact of the matter is, you know, the 14 Indians have a -- well, in California there are no 15 treaties, they're Executive Order only. But I think 16 Ulysses Grant signed an Executive Order in the Hoopa 17 case. Some were by Abe Lincoln, some were by Grant. 18 Q. What's the difference? 19 A. I'm not aware that the government viewed it 20 with any difference. I think they treated the 21 Executive Order as if it were a treaty. 22 Q. Is there supposed to be a difference between a 23 treaty Indian system and an Executive Order Indian 24 system? 25 A. I think an Executive Order signed by the 19 |
1 President is not the same as a treaty ratified, so I 2 would say yes, you could make an argument that the 3 Executive Order does not rise to the same dignity 4 and level as a treaty. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. But I don't recall being treated any 7 differently. On the other hand, I don't know too 8 much how they treat Indians. Here in Washington 9 state they're all treaty Indians. 10 Q. I see. Did you have much interaction with the 11 Indian tribes themselves, like this Hoopa tribe? 12 A. Oh, yeah. Once a month I went to a formal 13 council meeting, and then the tribal members were 14 there, and you had to deal with questions. 15 One time there was a flap over something, and 16 they were going to recall Charles Moon. I think his 17 name was Charles. Anyway, his last name was Moon. 18 He was chairman of the board. And my contract 19 was -- I had to be voted on; right? 20 Now, at this time Regan was gone and I was the 21 person on the contract. In any event, we won by two 22 votes. Now, whether it was rigged or not I don't 23 know, but we did win. But it wasn't exactly a 24 landslide. 25 Q. Give us a physical layout of one of these 20 |
1 Indian meetings. 2 A. I don't know what you mean by that. I mean, 3 they meet in a place with a room with a table, you 4 know. 5 Q. You don't meet in a tepee, then? 6 A. No, no. Kind of like Board of Supervisors 7 meeting or something of that sort, yeah. 8 Q. And that's a tribal council, is it, that 9 meeting? 10 A. Yeah. I don't recall how many. There were, 11 like five or seven. They were elected. And then 12 they had a chairman who I mentioned. I think his 13 name was Joe Moon, but I know his last name was 14 Moon. 15 Q. Okay. And how long did that relationship last 16 with the Hoopa Tribe and after Mr. Regan left? 17 A. Well, Regan got appointed to the -- wasn't 18 mister, he was a senator. 19 Q. Sorry. I never was very good at titles. 20 A. Anyway, he got appointed to the District Court 21 of Appeal for the Third District in Sacramento. And 22 after he left, the District Attorney, he went 23 somewhere. I think he got appointed a judgeship. 24 But in any event, I became District Attorney/County 25 Counsel for Trinity County. 21 |
1 And then subsequent to that -- well, during 2 that period of time, again, these are fairly short 3 periods of time, like a year or so. My wife and I 4 got a divorce and election came up again and I was 5 finishing out a term. I'd been appointed, I'd not 6 been elected. And there was one other attorney. 7 And Weaverville, Trinity County is a very 8 small county populationwise, and it doesn't have any 9 incorporated city. Weaverville, Weavy they called 10 it, was not an incorporated city. 11 In any event, I also had a private practice, 12 so I represented people on civil matters, in my 13 private practice part. And I wasn't too interested 14 in staying in Weaverville. 15 And there was a guy name Shepherd who was an 16 attorney there. He talked to me about running for 17 DA, and I said well, I'm not terribly interested in 18 running, so why don't you run. And we'll just see. 19 If I win fine, if not so be it. So Shepherd, Shep 20 we called him, had a little drinking problem. So 21 when we went to meetings out of town, 'cause we 22 would go to Hayfork and various areas that were 23 several miles from Weaverville, I drove him. So we 24 went together, and it was kind of a social thing, 25 and you went around, shook hands, and talked to 22 |
1 people, and you didn't make speeches much and that 2 sort of thing. 3 Anyway, Shep got elected, and I did not get 4 elected, obviously. And the joke around the county 5 was that well, at the time I'm single and I was 6 chasing or looking at some young ladies who were 7 kind of nice in many respects, and so the joke in 8 the county was do you want a sex fiend or a drunk 9 for a DA, and they picked a drunk. What can I say. 10 Q. Well, it's one way of losing. We'll leave all 11 that in, Dick. 12 A. After the election, Shep won it, which was 13 fine with me, actually. I think it was because of 14 Harry Ackley, actually. 15 Q. Who's Harry Ackley? 16 A. Well, he was DA for a while in Yolo and then 17 became a Superior Court Judge in Yolo County. I 18 think it was because of him. At any rate, the 19 public defender position in Yolo County was 20 available. 21 Q. Was that a full-time position or a part-time 22 position? 23 A. It was a part-time with practice, you had 24 staff people. All part time. Everybody was part 25 time. Maybe the secretary wasn't. But I had three 23 |
1 or four attorneys that worked for me. I got 2 appointed, anyway, to the public defender job. 3 Q. And where was that office located? 4 A. Well, that's a good question. I think 5 originally I was in Woodland. I did a lot of work 6 with John Beede, B-e-e-d-e. 7 Q. And where was he located? 8 A. In Davis. Ultimately, I got remarried and 9 moved to Davis, but I don't recall whether I had an 10 office in Davis or not or just worked out of the 11 Woodland office. 12 Q. For the record what was the distance between 13 Davis and Woodland in miles, if you recall? 14 A. Well, it's not very far. It's like 10 miles 15 or something. And Woodland's only, I don't know, 15 16 miles from Sacramento. 17 Q. Yeah. Where was your private practice office 18 located relative to your district attorney office? 19 Or was it one and the same thing? 20 A. Well, not district attorney, probably 21 defender. 22 Q. I'm sorry, public defender. 23 A. They're one and the same. You didn't have a 24 public office. 25 Q. I see. 24 |
1 A. You had a private office. But it was in 2 Woodland, on Cleveland Avenue, if I remember 3 correctly. But I don't know what that means any 4 more. Anyway, it was in Woodland. 5 Q. Did you have any assistants? Assistant public 6 defenders in there? 7 A. Yeah, I had three, I think. 8 Q. Who were they? 9 A. Well, one was Rudy Bench, Rudolph Bench. You 10 know, I don't recall. The other guy was pretty 11 prominent. John Beede had been public defender, by 12 the way, and he and I became good friends, and I 13 worked with John some. And then I used to sail with 14 him a lot. If you want to enjoy sailing, make sure 15 you have a friend that owns a boat. See, that's a 16 key. On San Francisco Bay and down in that area. 17 He had it located in Sausalito. John had been the 18 public defender. He left just to go into private 19 practice. I replaced John Beede. 20 Q. Dick, you indicated your part-time practice 21 you had worked with John Beede. Can you tell us 22 whether John ever had any impact on how you 23 practiced law. 24 A. Well, John and I didn't spend much time 25 together in the practice of law. However, we did 25 |
1 spend a lot of time in the boat and that sort of 2 thing and had a lot of discussions about cases and 3 things. Now, John was, you know, not the most 4 sophisticated guy in the world, but he had been an 5 old claims adjuster and very good negotiator and a 6 very good down-to-earth-type, get-a-job-done 7 lawyer. And so in that sense yes, he understood the 8 need to find out what the facts were and get on with 9 it, and not make a federal, excuse the expression, a 10 federal case out of everything that you touched. 11 Q. I see. There's probably a five-year period 12 from roughly 1966 when you left Trinity County to 13 come to Yolo County. Did you practice as the 14 part-time public defender that full five years in 15 Yolo County, if you remember? 16 A. You know, Cliff, I don't recall. But it 17 doesn't seem to me like I had gone back into private 18 practice entirely. Beede and I did a lot of work 19 together, and I don't think there was any formal 20 association. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. It seems to me like I was probably defender 23 like three or four years only. I don't think I was 24 still public defender when I was appointed Federal 25 Defender, which was July 1st, 1971. But I frankly 26 |
1 don't recall. I had moved to Davis. I lived in 2 Davis. I'd remarried. But I don't recall. 3 Q. At some time during that period of time did 4 you became aware there was an interest in you 5 becoming the Federal Defender? 6 A. You know, I don't recall exactly how it came 7 about that I applied for the job. As a practical 8 matter on the Federal Defender thing. 9 Judge MacBride called the shot on it as a practical 10 matter. And I knew Judge MacBride when he was an 11 Assemblyman. 12 Phil Wilkins, I had retained him and a private 13 attorney for the Hoopa Indians to do a lobby job in 14 Washington. He did some lobbying, and he did a good 15 job. So I knew Phil Wilkins. And I knew 16 Sherrill Halbert. 17 Now, McBride's first choice, actually, was one 18 of his former law clerks. And I can't recall the 19 guy's name, frankly. But he wasn't interested, 20 apparently. And I know there was a full field FBI 21 investigation required, same as for the Assistant 22 U.S. Attorneys and so forth. I had been through 23 that once before, plus I had top secret clearance in 24 the Air Force so other than the divorce, there was 25 no real negative in my past, so I don't recall. 27 |
1 And at that time the U.S. Court of Appeals, 2 actually, was not much involved. Technically, they 3 made the appointment. However, the appointment was 4 done for all practical purposes by Judge MacBride 5 with the concurrence of Wilkins and Halbert. And 6 what happened in that interchange, I don't know. 7 I know that it was discussed with Phil, and I 8 know it was discussed with Halbert. But what 9 Halbert said or Wilkins said, I don't know. I know 10 a little bit about what Wilkins said because he 11 discussed it with me at one time, but I don't recall 12 specifically. But, so that's how it happened. 13 Whether Jim Hewitt out of San Francisco may 14 have had some influence in reference to my looking 15 into it, because Jim Hewitt was the first Federal 16 Defender. He was in the pilot program. They had 17 four pilot programs. One of them was in 18 San Francisco, and Hewitt was involved in that. 19 Hewitt was an Assistant U.S. Attorney when I was 20 court crier, law clerk, and what was involved in the 21 court system in San Francisco. So I'd known him 22 since 1959 or '60. And he may have had some 23 influence. We did cross paths once in a while. But 24 I don't have any specific recollection of that. 25 Q. Dick, you indicated that Judge Wilkins may 28 |
1 have talked to you about some of the things that 2 once occurred during the selection process. Do you 3 recall anything specifically that he told you? He's 4 gone and he can't help us in that regard. 5 A. Well, it was a casual conversation of social 6 setting. Judge MacBride was chief judge at the 7 time. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And all Phil said was that the judge had 10 talked to him about it, and he said -- he called me 11 little Dicky Walker, okay. I think that little 12 Dicky Walker'd be okay, you know, and he'd worked 13 with me and so forth. I don't know that he had much 14 more input. I think MacBride as a courtesy was 15 talking to him. MacBride being MacBride probably 16 figured he's going to do what he wanted, anyway. 17 But skipping that aspect of it. And he was chief 18 judge, and I guess that was fine. And PCW wouldn't 19 have taken any exception or umbrage to that, anyway. 20 Q. When you say PCW, who is that? 21 A. Phil Wilkins. Anyway, we generally called him 22 PCW. And depending on his rulings later, we called 23 him some other things. And I won't get into that. 24 Behind his back, of course. 25 Q. Yeah. 29 |
1 A. Or not to his face or something. 2 Q. When you were appointed, was there an 3 investiture procedure, or how were you brought into 4 the picture? 5 A. No, there was nothing. I was just -- you 6 know, I'm a bastard member of the family, so I was 7 just sworn in, that's all. 8 Q. Do you remember who swore you in? 9 A. I actually don't. To be honest with you. I 10 would imagine it would have been -- I don't recall 11 the Court of Appeals. I know it's different now and 12 supposed to have been different then. I don't 13 recall the Court of Appeals being involved at all. 14 And I don't recall whether I got sworn in or I just 15 got some document that said you're hereby appointed, 16 signed by maybe the chief judge from the U.S. Court 17 of Appeals. And I don't remember who the chief 18 judge was at that time. Might still have been 19 Chambers, but I don't recall. 20 Q. Before you were appointed, had you had any 21 interaction with the administrative office of the 22 court system in Washington? 23 A. None. 24 Q. No contact whatsoever? 25 A. Oh, you mean in reference to the appointment 30 |
1 process? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Oh, I probably got some form to fill out. But 4 I don't recall. I don't recall any interaction 5 between me and the administrative office. Well, 6 they had a CJA division at that time. The guy 7 that's been there for a long time wasn't the head 8 of it. There was some other person in charge at 9 that time. But I forget what his name is. I knew 10 him. I mean, I've met him, but I just can't recall 11 his name. 12 Q. Well, somebody must us have talked to you 13 about salary. 14 A. Well, the salary was fixed, so, obviously, I 15 knew. I don't recall what it was, frankly. But I 16 knew what the salary was. It was a little less than 17 the U.S. Attorney, just out of the deference. 18 Q. And did you receive anything from the 19 administrative office in Washington as to how to set 20 up a Federal Defender's office. I mean, plans, 21 programs, anything? 22 A. I don't recall any of that. I would have 23 discussed it with Jim Hewitt, however, because I 24 know Hewitt well, so, and you know he had a 25 federal -- there are different kinds of programs. 31 |
1 Cleary's office in San Diego was basically a panel 2 attorney, and he administered to panel-type 3 operation. 4 Q. Cleary spelled C-l-e-a-r-y. 5 A. Yes. First name, John. Hewitt's operation 6 was typical. It was the same. He was a full 7 Federal Defender. Central District became a full 8 federal district. The Western District of 9 Washington. It was optional, and when I opened the 10 office in Sacramento, Crocker didn't want me in 11 Fresno. Although I knew Don Crocker. He didn't 12 want me in Fresno particularly. He had his own 13 little show he operated, and he didn't need me, he 14 thought. And I did not have an office there. 15 Eventually, the judges felt the Federal 16 Defender should be there, and then I opened an 17 office at the request of the Court. 18 Q. Who decided where your office would be located 19 when you first came into the Sacramento picture as 20 an appointed Federal Defender? 21 A. GSA it turns out did it then. They made space 22 available for me. I think I was on the third 23 floor. I think. That's my recollection. 24 Q. And the U.S. Attorney's Office was on the 25 second floor? 32 |
1 A. I think so, yes. Yeah. Ultimately, it seemed 2 to me the U.S. Attorney moved. Are they on the 3 third floor? Well, they moved. Were they on the 4 third floor later? They were. Okay. They took 5 over my space later. They threw me out. I got 6 evicted. 7 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall what acts you took 8 to set up? Now, this is a brand-new office with a 9 brand-new concept. 10 A. Well, you have to understand I'd already run a 11 federal or a county Public Defender. I'd already 12 been a District Attorney, and so I knew operational 13 matter, and although the county defender position 14 was part time, I had staff, investigators, and all 15 that stuff. The staff were part time. They had 16 their own offices. We did not share offices. They 17 were in private practice. We all were part-time 18 attorneys. We had no full-time attorneys. 19 And I don't know that we had any full-time 20 people. I think secretaries and everything else 21 that we hired, part of the salary was paid by the 22 county and part of it by we who were in private 23 practice. We were all in private practice. So but 24 still it was an operational office. So I had that 25 experience as far as how to run an office. 33 |
1 Q. And you could transfer that into your new 2 position. 3 A. Plus I had been in the U.S. Attorney's 4 Office. I had been in the legal department for 5 Western Bank Corporation. And I, you know, I had 6 some office experience. 7 Q. Okay. Who's the group that actually found the 8 physical area, purchased the equipment and 9 everything? Who was that? 10 A. You mean as far as the space is concerned? 11 Q. And filling it up, yes, with equipment, 12 everything else. 13 A. Well, as far as the space is concerned, I 14 think GSA said this is your space. And we were 15 looking at a certain amount of staff, I think. I 16 may be wrong, but it seemed to me including me there 17 was going to be three attorneys, couple secretary 18 types, and an investigator. The office may have 19 been larger than that, but I don't recall. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Let's see. I think there were three of us to 22 start with, maybe four max. 23 Q. Okay. Who was the first attorney that you 24 hired? 25 A. Fair question. I think Bob Baker, my chief 34 |
1 assistant. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I don't remember much about Bob Baker. He was 4 kind of weird, and but I don't remember too much 5 about Bob. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Other than I knew him. I hired people I knew 8 mostly. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. I knew something about. 11 Q. And who was the first female person in any 12 capacity that you hired? 13 A. My secretary, which was Tosco Arabini. 14 Q. Okay. And how long did she stay with you? 15 A. Anyway, she was with me -- you could ask 16 Jane Itogawa, she replaced her. But a year or so, I 17 guess. Two years maybe. I don't recall. 18 Q. I'm going to ask you to spell Jane Itogawa's 19 name, please. 20 A. Well, her maiden name was Hashisaka. And I 21 can't pronounce the -- Itogawa is her married name. 22 Q. I'll spell it for you. It's H-a-s-h, Hashi 23 s-a-k-a. Hashisaka. 24 A. That's her maiden name. 25 Q. Maiden name. 35 |
1 A. Itogawa is her married name. 2 Q. And that's I-t-o-g-a-w-a. 3 A. And her husband's name is Gene. 4 Q. That's correct. 5 A. Anyway, she came in and then became 6 administrative assistant. And ultimately she 7 handled all -- I had everything delegated. Jane was 8 in charge of finances in the office, ultimately. 9 Well, she did secretarial, and she was also my 10 secretary. But she ultimately became administrative 11 assistant. And she controlled all expenditures in 12 the office. If there was a conflict between -- oh, 13 the kids are back. 14 Q. Oh. 15 A. There are raccoons back there. Don't pay any 16 attention, they won't bother you. Anyway, we're in 17 the country here. 18 The only things I did with finances, if there 19 was a question about whether something could be 20 authorized, usually we had to deal with Dave Kraft 21 on that; right? 22 Q. Now, who is Dave Kraft? 23 A. He was the first investigator I hired. And he 24 was there for a long time, and then he ultimately 25 quit to go in private practice. 36 |
1 Q. Did you know Dave before you hired him in the 2 Federal Defender's Office? 3 A. Well, it seems to me, Dave could fill you in 4 on this, I think he was a deputy sheriff in Yolo 5 County. And I think he'd left that and went into 6 investigation work prior to my hiring him. I don't 7 think I hired him out of the sheriff's department, 8 but I may have, but I don't recall that. But yes, I 9 knew Dave from Yolo County days. 10 Q. Okay. And did you hire -- what were the 11 names -- 12 A. And Jane was with some guy named Shubb, 13 S-h-u-b-b, in the U.S. Attorney's Office. 14 Q. First name? 15 A. Little Billy. No, William B. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. Like, no, I better put it this way: B like A 18 B. He had something to do because she worked for 19 him, so he twisted my arm to hire Jane. And one of 20 the better things he ever did for me, by the way, 21 but anyway. 22 Q. At the time you took over the Federal 23 Defender's Office, do you recall who the United 24 States Attorney was? 25 A. Well, Dwayne Keyes was there for a long time 37 |
1 and David Levi of course was there subsequent to 2 that. 3 Q. Was there a man named Sillas, Herman Sillas? 4 A. Well, I'm not so sure Herman wasn't there when 5 I was in the U.S. Attorney's Office. I'm trying to 6 recall. Pretty sure Herman would have been there. 7 Depends on where the administration was. I guess I 8 don't recall. I know I spent a lot of time with 9 Keyes. I was there 16 years. Seemed to me like 10 Keyes was there two terms. I think he left. I 11 think he became a judge subsequent to his leaving 12 the U.S. Attorney's Office. 13 Q. Yes. Do you remember the names of some of the 14 Assistant U.S. Attorneys at that time you took over 15 that office? 16 A. You know, I think Nichols was there. 17 Dick Nichols. Bill Shubb eventually became -- oh, 18 I'm sorry. Chief Judge Shubb came into the office, 19 and I don't recall when he was an Assistant U.S. 20 Attorney. He was at the time Jane came out of the 21 U.S. Attorney's Office to my office. That's my 22 recollection. 23 Q. Was there an attorney there by the name of 24 Bruce Babcock? 25 A. Well, yes, Bruce, but not at that time. Bruce 38 |
1 came later. But yes, Bruce was in the office for 2 quite some time and Nancy Simpson and the guy with 3 the red suspenders, old Brewster Morgan and so forth 4 and so on. There was Tom Couris, he had left the 5 office. 6 Q. At the time the side A of the tape terminated, 7 you had been mentioning some of the Assistant United 8 States Attorneys. Would you tell us the names of 9 the Deputy or Assistant Public Defenders, the 10 Federal Defenders that you hired other than Baker. 11 A. Well, you know, our hiring policy was 12 imperfect. I hired Cliff Tedmon at one time, for 13 example. 14 Rod Shepherd, who later was with Beli, he 15 worked with me for a short period of time. 16 Carl Larson, I think Carl was a Deputy District 17 Attorney up in, oh, Marysville or what county, 18 Colusa County. Yeah, Colusa County. Carl came 19 along, and he's the only one who lasted. I guess he 20 wasn't a threat to Ruthenbeck, who came along later 21 and destroyed the office. But skipping that aspect 22 of it, I'm getting ahead of myself. I wanted to get 23 that in twice. 24 Bob Holley. Well, then there was the Fresno 25 office as well. 39 |
1 Q. Now, how did the Fresno office come about? 2 You indicated that Judge Crocker really wasn't 3 interested initially. How did that come about? 4 A. The judges themselves decided that, you know, 5 having a branch. I wasn't out to save the world. 6 Okay? Having a branch office is a pain in the 7 derriere, frankly. And so I never pushed it. You 8 know, and I had enough trouble dealing with 9 Sacramento without trying to save the world. So I 10 didn't push it. And I got paid the same whether I 11 had a branch office or not, frankly. And so I 12 didn't have anything to do with that. 13 The judges decided that it was time, and it 14 may have been. You know, the number of judges 15 increased, okay. Crocker's on senior status, and 16 maybe when he took senior status, I forget 17 whether -- I guess Bob Coyle was before 18 E. Dean Price. Anyway, you end up with Price down 19 there and Coyle down there, and I think they decided 20 the Federal Defender should be down there. 21 Q. Okay. Dick, there is an interesting facet 22 that I think the Historical Society would like to 23 know. You started as a pioneer in a new office 24 concept in an old system. You brought a Public 25 Defender or Federal Defender's system into the old 40 |
1 federal justice system. And it'd be interesting to 2 know how the various entities within that system 3 received your office. For example, how well were 4 you received by the United States Attorney's 5 Office? What type of reaction did you get? Just 6 that office alone. 7 A. Resistance. 8 Q. What type of resistance? 9 A. Well, they were accustomed to, number one, 10 dealing with attorneys that weren't quite as well 11 informed on the law as we were. They were not 12 dealing with lawyers with investigators, as we 13 were. And so it was a much more of a quick shuffle 14 to resolve matters. And they were in control. Plus 15 there was a certain interaction with the judges that 16 slowly went by the wayside. It was inappropriate 17 and probably unethical, frankly. Judicial and 18 legal. From a lawyer's point of view. But 19 nevertheless, those things died out. 20 Now, I did have some advantages over somebody 21 else that might have come in. First off, I knew a 22 lot of people in the clerk's office personally. I 23 knew the Chief Probation Office personally, and 24 actually, I knew some of the U.S. Attorneys and the 25 judges and the U.S. Marshal or deputy. I don't 41 |
1 recall who the U.S. Marshal was. 2 Nevertheless, they weren't accustomed to 3 having a defense attorney on every appearance on 4 every arraignment as soon as people were brought 5 in. You know, usually they arraigned them, then 6 they called somebody, and eventually somebody got 7 over, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 8 So now they have to deal with the fact that 9 once arrested, my policy was that individual should 10 be contacted, and we contacted them. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. We didn't wait 'til the Court came along, 13 decided whether they were qualified for 14 appointment. If they were going to have a private 15 attorney, we'd call the private attorney and say 16 hey, this guy's in jail, this, that, and the other 17 thing. 90 percent of the caseload or more was 18 qualified for appointment under the CJA. 19 Q. Now, what kind of reaction did you receive 20 from the Probation Department itself and the 21 probation officers, when you began? 22 A. Actually, the biggest problem we had with the 23 probation office was dealing with such matters as 24 confidentiality of the probation report. Which to 25 me is nonsense. 42 |
1 Q. What does that mean when you say that? 2 Confidentiality of the report. What did that mean? 3 A. Well, they would prepare a report, and they 4 would have a conversation with the judge in 5 chambers. The conversation with the judge in 6 chambers and the conversation, written conversation, 7 so to speak, and report weren't one in the same. So 8 you didn't know exactly what recommendation they 9 were really making. And you didn't know whether the 10 recommendation was -- at that time we had split 11 sentence, and some portion of six months could be in 12 jail. We didn't have that. Which I always thought 13 was inappropriate. That got eliminated eventually. 14 But the split sentence was a pain in the derriere. 15 You know, MacBride would have told you a funny 16 story when I was arguing for 90 days on a case. I 17 knew the guy had a recommendation for split 18 sentence. I knew the judge was going to give him a 19 split sentence, okay. So I'm arguing 90 days, and 20 the judge is sitting up -- because I'm guessing; 21 right? I figured they're going to recommend at 22 least a hundred twenty or the whole six months, 23 which really is only five months because they get 24 some credit, anyway. But in any event. 25 So I'm arguing 90 days. And the judge starts 43 |
1 to smile a little bit, and I'm looking at him and 2 thinking, you know, I've been in front of him a lot, 3 I know him well. You know, he's got that smile like 4 I've got you Dicky; right? So I stopped and 5 said, "You know, your Honor, I think I'll submit it 6 on the probation recommendation." He leans over and 7 said, "Very good move, Mr. Walker." 8 I'll never forget that. But anyway, those are 9 the kind of things that ultimately we were able to 10 deal with. But the first six months was hell, 11 frankly. 12 Q. How were you received by the Marshal's Office? 13 A. That was an ongoing fight. 14 Q. Describe that type of problem you had. 15 A. Well, the fact is they had people incarcerated 16 down in the holding cells; right? And they resisted 17 our interviewing them prior to going to court. 18 Actually, how I got around that wasn't on the 19 criminal side, it was on the fact, look, Judge, why 20 waste your time. We got to come into court and ask 21 a bunch of questions. Let's interview them in 22 advance. We could qualify them in the CJA. So 23 that's what we did. And if we're going to have an 24 appointed attorney, because we worked on a 75/25 25 percent margin. 44 |
1 Q. What's a 75/25 percent margin mean? 2 A. I made sure that at least 25 percent of all 3 CJA cases went to the panel. Plus I never took more 4 than one defendant in a multiple-defendant case. So 5 if you had three defendants that qualified in the 6 same case, you would have two appointed attorneys 7 and one Federal Defender type. So we were 8 interviewing them in advance. That's how we got 9 around that problem, and the Marshal cooperated, 10 because the judge told him to. U.S. Magistrate, 11 actually. 12 Q. Now, how were you received by the U.S. 13 Magistrate at that time? 14 A. Well, I'm trying to remember who the 15 Magistrate was. 16 Q. Was it Esther Mix? 17 A. Esther Mix was there most of my 18 administration, and she may have been there. Now, 19 see, I would have known. Esther Mix was U.S. 20 Magistrate because of Phil Wilkins. Okay? I forget 21 whether she was a partner or whatever, but she was 22 associated with Wilkins, and that's how she got to 23 be U.S. Magistrate. 24 So I knew her in advance, and I really didn't 25 have any problem with her. Sometimes people think 45 |
1 I'm assertive, more aggressive, perhaps, than I 2 should or use improper language in the judicial 3 forum, which I never do any of that kind of crap, 4 frankly. But I don't recall too much problem with 5 Esther Mix, frankly. 6 Q. How were you received by the judges, let's say 7 Judge MacBride, Judge Wilkins, Judge Halbert. 8 A. Well, the biggest problem was Halbert, of 9 course. 10 Q. What type of problem with him? 11 A. Well, he had run his own court for years. For 12 example, I forget when this happened, and I don't 13 know exactly what went on, and I don't know whether 14 anybody actually heard anything. Okay? And if it 15 was, it wasn't exactly a news bulletin to me, in any 16 event. 17 But either I or one of my attorneys was in the 18 clerk's office. Inside, not out in the visiting 19 area. On the clerk's side of the counter, how's 20 that. The judge came in, was ragging about 21 something, some case, one of our causes, actually. 22 And lo and behold there was an attorney from my 23 staff. 24 So then an order issued that no defender was 25 allowed inside the clerk's office. That didn't last 46 |
1 too long, actually. But anyway, there was an order 2 by the Court. I guess MacBride issued it. That no 3 defender was to be allowed inside the clerk's 4 office. I'm not talking about the outside. I mean, 5 inside where the desk and all that sort, where the 6 operations were. 7 Q. Okay. The operations part. 8 A. We could go in the clerk's office, but only on 9 the visitor side. 10 Q. To file papers and so forth? 11 A. The business side, yeah. 12 Q. I see. And that was a short time. 13 A. But see, I'd done some favors for guys like 14 Grindstaff. He happened to be clerk. I don't know 15 if he was clerk when I got there. But, you know, 16 Jimmy was a good friend of mine. He'd talk to me. 17 I mean, people would talk to me. They know that I 18 treat matters in confidence. So I knew more about 19 what was going on in that building more than anybody 20 else, actually. People trusted me. 21 Q. Dick, one of the things that happens in a 22 pioneer program is the guy who starts it routinely 23 has some vision of what he wants that program to 24 accomplish. Did you have any view of what you 25 wanted accomplished once you started this major 47 |
1 change in the federal system? 2 A. Well, the change, of course, is the factor is 3 the Federal Defender Office. There isn't any change 4 in the sense that I wanted to run a criminal defense 5 law firm. And we did appeals as well. So what I 6 was interested in doing is creating an office doing 7 syllabuses, creating seminars, et cetera, to enlarge 8 the interest and knowledge of the people practicing 9 this special area of the law. 10 Because most of the people over there were 11 state practitioners and federal wasn't much. And 12 they hadn't paid them much in the past, for that 13 matter, on the panel. 14 But the point is I wanted each attorney to 15 develop his own personality. They didn't have to do 16 exactly what I did or any of that sort of thing, 17 because everybody has their own way of accomplishing 18 things. However, I wanted them informed. I wanted 19 them to be aggressive. I wanted them to be willing 20 to try cases, and that was my philosophy. It was a 21 law firm. 22 Happened to be in the Federal Building, and 23 the best thing that happened on that aspect of it 24 was we got evicted eventually, but that was good. 25 As it turned out, I liked it much better when we 48 |
1 were outside the Federal Courthouse. 2 Q. Why did you like it better? 3 A. Well, the appearance of being in the Federal 4 Courthouse, clients having to come there. You see, 5 we'd have to meet some clients in some areas outside 6 the Federal Building. You don't want them walking 7 in the Federal Building and running into an 8 Assistant U.S. Attorney or probation officer or 9 somebody. Even a judge, for that matter. That 10 creates some awkward situations and uncomfortable 11 for the client. 12 So we often would meet people away from the 13 office. Even in a bar once in a while. I didn't 14 believe in drinking on duty. I made up for it 15 after, I might add, but skipping that aspect of it. 16 So moving us out turned out to be a real 17 advantage to us, ultimately. 18 Q. Now, when your office was in its early 19 beginnings, did any actions taken by the federal 20 government either by way of politics or war or 21 anything else impact your office significantly? 22 A. I don't know if it was a war or conflict, you 23 know. I was in Korea, so it was a conflict; right? 24 People getting killed thought it was a war, but 25 skipping that aspect of it. 49 |
1 Well, we had the Vietnam situation, and we had 2 protesters, and people arrested protesting, 3 trespassing, you know, that aspect of it. Plus 4 people not going into the draft. I think there was 5 a draft problem. Carl Larson actually handled those 6 matters. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. Now, Carl is a -- well, let me put it this way 9 to you. If I wanted to tick off the U.S. Attorney, 10 I sent Bob Holley in. If I wanted to appease the 11 U.S. Attorney, I sent Carl Larson in. 12 Now, my view is Carl, he handled a lot of 13 immigration stuff, didn't try many cases in his 14 entire career there, I don't think. More court 15 trials and stuff in the Magistrate's court, but in 16 this area, this mostly is a matter of resolving the 17 thing at a level acceptable, and acceptable was 18 acceptable to both parties in this case. 19 The U.S. Attorney wanted to get rid of it, and 20 so you usually got what I would characterize as a 21 soft disposition. 22 Q. Do you recall who the U.S. Attorney was that 23 was primary in handling these cases? 24 A. I think it was old red suspenders himself, 25 Brewster Morgan. 50 |
1 Q. Brewster Morgan. 2 A. Um-hum. Brewster Q., as I recall, but 3 anyway. He was a character. A lovable character, I 4 might add. I should put that in, I guess. 5 Q. And were these cases a significant workload 6 for your office? 7 A. Well, ultimately, the drug cases got to be 8 heavy. But at that time I would say there was a lot 9 of numbers. Now, time consumption is a different 10 question. Because like immigration cases, most of 11 those cases are resolved. So you don't have a lot 12 of investigation. There are exceptions. 13 I mean, most of the time if we were talking 14 about persons coming in from Mexico, work people, 15 those cases, Carl handled those. Occasionally, 16 you'd get an immigration case where it involved a 17 more significant, more dramatic, and did do 18 investigative work and so forth. Most of them we 19 didn't investigate. We relied on the reports and so 20 forth, and they were kind of like a revolving door, 21 really. 22 Q. And Carl also handled the draft evasion cases, 23 the protest cases. 24 A. And much the same there. Once in a while 25 you'd get a case involving an alleged trespass or 51 |
1 something, where people were squatting or camping or 2 doing something, and sometimes Krafty would go out 3 and take some pictures, and we would do some of 4 that, because it would make a difference on the 5 resolution. Okay? 6 And you had a controversy as to where they 7 were and whether they were in fact on federal, and 8 where the signs were posted, things of that sort. 9 Q. And when you say Krafty, you mean David Kraft, 10 your investigator? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Okay. Okay. Go ahead. 13 A. I don't know what percentage, you know, bank 14 robbers were always a regular case and so forth. 15 Q. As the system evolved, did the workload 16 change, let's say from 1970 on to 1975? 17 A. I don't recall the time spans, to be honest 18 with you, Cliff. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Ultimately, the government DEA got more 21 involved with the drug world, and we got more and 22 more drug cases. Which took a lot of time. And 23 they were multiple-defendant cases almost always. 24 Usually there was a private attorney involved as 25 well as a court appointed attorney as well as 52 |
1 somebody from the Federal Defender's Office. 2 Now, our philosophy, my philosophy was if 3 somebody came in and said -- I don't like the term 4 public defender. We don't represent the public in 5 any stretch of the imagination. If they had a 6 choice, they'd vote us out of office. So the 7 Federal Defender had that name specifically because 8 of that. 9 The people that were involved, like McCarthy 10 and Cleary and Hewitt, were sensitive to that. So 11 that's how the title federal became as opposed to 12 the Federal Public Defender. It was purposely left 13 out. Whether it was in or not, I wasn't involved in 14 the history of it, so I don't know of the bill. 15 But in any event, if anybody said I don't want 16 a public defender, they would use that term, they 17 wouldn't say federal, we'd say fine. We'd just 18 automatically appoint a private attorney. 19 Because we didn't have any problem keeping the 20 75/25, even with that. Now, ultimately, the 21 office's reputation developed to the point where 22 people were in fact asking for our office. We had 23 really no problem with we don't want you. Okay. 24 And if there was ever a problem during the course of 25 the case and a guy wanted another lawyer, we 53 |
1 automatically appointed someone else. 2 Actually, we'd let the client interview the 3 person first. The attorney would come in and meet 4 him, and then the Court would -- we did the whole 5 CJA thing. So the Court never bothered us, because 6 we saved them a lot of time and money. 7 Q. What does CJA mean? 8 A. Criminal Justice Act. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Is the one that creates the office as well as 11 the appointment system for panel attorneys. 12 Q. Now, when you were selecting panel attorneys 13 or people to be on your panel of attorneys, how did 14 you go about doing that initially? 15 A. Well, you'd like a nice, articulate 16 sophisticated answer. The answer is, if you wanted 17 on the panel, you're on the panel. 18 Q. Okay. Were there any forms to fill out? 19 A. I don't recall, we may have. Yeah, probably 20 office number and a few things. A little bit about 21 your criminal background. Most of them we knew. 22 Somebody in the office would know, or if I didn't, 23 I'd call somebody I did know. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. If I had a heavyweight case and I didn't know 54 |
1 anything about an attorney, you know, I'd call 2 Clyde Blackmon or somebody that's been out in the 3 street for a long time and ask them what they know 4 about this guy or lady. You know, we had both men 5 and women on the panel. More now on the women's 6 side. In those days there weren't that many women 7 practicing criminal law. But, you know, now it's a 8 very different world. Fortunately in my view. But 9 in any event, that's how it was. 10 We had a panel, and we had a selector of the 11 panel, and that selector did it based on how serious 12 the case was and how good the lawyer was, in her 13 mind, I might add. Not exactly a sophisticated 14 system. But Mabel Adams did one hell of a job. 15 Q. Now, when did you hire Mabel Adams? 16 A. Well, Ted was -- 17 Q. Who's Ted? 18 A. Ted was her late husband. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Ted was, I think, Sherrill Halbert's courtroom 21 clerk. I think. He was a courtroom clerk, at any 22 rate. I think he was Halbert, because he was there 23 when I was in -- I knew them, actually, from the 24 U.S. Attorney's Office. 25 She worked at a college or something, as I 55 |
1 recall. Then when Ted died, I think I didn't hire 2 her until Ted died. And I don't recall exactly when 3 that was, but that was down the line a little ways. 4 The original panel handling was, frankly, when 5 we first opened, I don't recall. I may have done it 6 myself. I really don't recall. Ultimately, Mabel 7 was in charge of that. 8 I had everything delegated in the office. 9 Staff, their favorite saying was things run best 10 when I wasn't around. But anyway, everything was 11 totally delegated. Because I believe a Federal 12 Defender should carry a 50 percent caseload. I 13 think it's a little tough. 14 You know the old saying if you haven't walked 15 in some guy's moccasins, whatever that phrase is. 16 Well, you can't criticize somebody for a lousy trial 17 job when you're not in there facing judges and 18 juries and U.S. Attorneys and lying FBI agents, et 19 cetera, that you have to deal with on a regular 20 basis. 21 So you got all that problem, and you need to 22 do it yourself. You can't sit back and say oh, 23 well, to to to and this, and you don't know that, 24 and you don't know. Well, you say he lied and all 25 that, well, give me a break. I wouldn't trust the 56 |
1 FBI any further than I can throw the state of 2 Washington. Period. End of discussion on that one. 3 Q. So you did carry a workload along with the 4 other lawyers. 5 A. Yeah, and I think every Federal Defender 6 should. And I did appeals as well. And I appeared 7 in the Magistrate's court in such matters as well. 8 I didn't just pick a big case. I didn't do that at 9 all, as a matter of fact. Once a case was assigned, 10 I never got involved in it. I don't care how much 11 press or anything else. I wasn't interested in 12 that. 13 Q. Yeah. Now, you had a chief assistant named 14 Baker. What type of duties did you assign to him? 15 A. You know, Bob may have done the panel but I 16 don't recall. He was the first guy aboard. I don't 17 recall. Frankly, I don't recall. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. He was a bright, little strange, you know. 20 You had to be strange to work for me, anyway. Come 21 to think of it. But anyway. Present company 22 included. 23 Q. Yeah. 24 A. But anyway, had to add that. 25 Q. Okay. When did you hire the next chief 57 |
1 assistant? 2 A. You know, Baker left. Other than Steve Noxen 3 I don't think I ever fired anybody. Baker left. I 4 forget where Bob went. Something came up and Bob 5 left, anyway. And I think Tedmon came in next. 6 Q. Okay. And what kind of duties did you assign 7 to Tedmon? 8 A. I'm not sure he wasn't in charge of the 9 panel. Now you're here, you can answer that. Were 10 you in charge of the panel? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. I thought so, but I'm just kind of hazy. 13 Eventually Mabel pretty much ran it. 14 Q. Right. 15 A. But my recollection you were in charge of the 16 panel. 17 Q. Yeah. Excuse me. Okay. We were discussing 18 what you assigned to Tedmon and the panel. How did 19 that come about? What'd you do? 20 A. Well, we had a helter skelter, excuse the 21 expression, panel in the sense that we had never 22 formalized it, so to speak. And I didn't want it 23 too formalized. So the thing you were to do is go 24 through and figure out who's not doing anything, who 25 won't accept appointments, who's no longer 58 |
1 practicing. 2 I mean, we had people, we just had an 3 open-ended panel; right? So your duties, one of the 4 things you did was clean up the panel and put it in 5 a not terribly formal format but a controllable 6 format. 7 Q. Was it about that time, say '73, '74, '75, in 8 that era when various Federal Defenders were 9 developing trial books or trial practice books? Do 10 you recall those being developed? 11 A. Yeah. Well, John Cleary down in San Diego had 12 one. Jimmy Hewitt had one. I didn't think much of 13 Cleary's, frankly, but and then we had been to 14 seminars and stuff. You know, they had national 15 stuff that we got together and had speakers provided 16 stuff. 17 Anyway, I don't remember when we did it. I 18 think you worked with me on this. 19 Q. Yes, I did. 20 A. We put together a syllabus for the Eastern 21 District. And then we held seminars here, primarily 22 for the panel, but anybody could come. It was open, 23 actually. And we also did it in Fresno. And then 24 we did the -- I don't know if we did that annually 25 once we started it, or I think we might have done it 59 |
1 annually. If not, we updated the syllabus. 2 Q. Do you remember whether or not the format that 3 Cleary's book, it was a book I think, took as 4 opposed to the format you wanted to use? 5 A. Well, we had a loose-leaf. The reason is we 6 wanted to update it. Plus I believe in matters of 7 this sort, the more voices you hear the better. And 8 so we had input from, actually, not only other 9 private attorneys but, you know, some discussions 10 with some of the leading defense attorneys in town. 11 But we also had discussions with the U.S. 12 Magistrate on sections dealing with the U.S. 13 Magistrate, for example. And we had some dealing 14 with, some interaction with the U.S. Attorney and 15 interaction with the probation office because it was 16 a working manual for the district. 17 I think some of the federal judges appeared 18 from time to time to speak to the panel, I mean 19 speak to the people at the syllabus, when we had a 20 meeting on the seminar. That's my recollection. 21 Certainly the U.S. Magistrate. I'm sure that 22 MacBride appeared. I think Coyle down in Fresno had 23 appeared. At all of them I think we had a U.S. 24 Magistrate. Because U.S. Magistrate had to do with 25 arraignment, bail, and the fundamentals of starting 60 |
1 a case. And we always had a cooperation from the 2 U.S. Attorney as well. 3 Q. Did you ever have in your panels have any view 4 of the importance of starting a case correctly, and 5 did you ever teach that? 6 A. Well, the answer is yes, because actually, 7 although the bail hearing is a bail hearing is a 8 bail hearing, and a person wants out, the point is 9 we had a lot more bail hearings than the 10 U.S. Attorney would like or the U.S. Magistrate. 11 One of the reasons is it brings out some 12 factors, and you force the agent to provide some 13 information, and this is very important. Human 14 relations is what we're talking about. Okay. It 15 established a good working relation between the 16 attorney and the defendant. 17 Because the damn attorney was actually trying 18 to help the poor bastard, and not just filing out a 19 form and you're gonna plead guilty, you know. And 20 there's overcharging, there's all kinds of things. 21 No matter how slam dunk the government's case is, it 22 doesn't follow that the attorney can accomplish many 23 things for his client or her client. 24 Q. You gave seminars and weekly or periodic 25 meetings with your staff and with the panel 61 |
1 attorneys; isn't that true? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And during those meetings what types of 4 comments would you make to these lawyers in their 5 training sessions? 6 A. Well, they ought to be prepared to try a case, 7 they ought to understand the rules of court, and 8 they ought to understand how to do instructions, and 9 instructions were available. 10 Q. Dick, we interrupted because the little 11 neighborhood girls came to buy some candy or get 12 some candy from you. 13 A. It was free. They were bugging me for some. 14 Q. I didn't figure. I thought you might sell it 15 to them. 16 A. Yeah, right. It was a handout. 17 Q. You were talking about the value of how you 18 react in the Magistrate's court. Would you expand 19 on that a little bit as in terms of what you talked 20 to lawyers that were at your seminars and meetings. 21 A. Well, the Magistrate court is the initial 22 contact as a practical matter in court with the 23 defendant. In many cases. Okay? Either dealing 24 with bail, arraignment, whatever. And appointments, 25 of course, were handled paperwise and say they 62 |
1 weren't necessarily appointed, they could be but we 2 processed the paper, and the judge signed it. The 3 Magistrate signed it. Ordinarily. So you didn't 4 appear, you didn't have to appear, have an 5 attorney. You did not have to be in front of a U.S. 6 Magistrate. But the first appearance, generally 7 speaking, is going to be in front of a U.S. 8 Magistrate. 9 U.S. Magistrate handled bail hearings subject 10 to appeal to the district court, which rarely 11 happened, frankly. So the critical time to 12 establish the attorney/client relationship is right 13 there. Even though there may be some insignificance 14 in what's happening, in that some cases you know you 15 ain't going to get bail, that doesn't mean you don't 16 make a pitch. You got to sell your client. 17 We were, I think, rather than kiss the 18 judges's ass, which a lot of lawyers do, you should 19 make it difficult for the judges. And they will 20 eventually respond properly, and as a result you get 21 a good client/attorney relationship. Our business 22 was to deal with clients. Our business was not to 23 please the Court. 24 And some people would say to me if you annoy 25 the judge, he'll get back at you. Well, that works 63 |
1 both ways. I can get back at the judge too. And 2 they knew that. And I didn't have that problem. 3 And besides that, I think as a practical 4 matter other than a few ruffled feathers here and 5 there to start with, the judges come to realize 6 their job was much easier. They didn't have to deal 7 with some guy saying I want a real lawyer, I don't 8 want this lawyer, and coming back into court. You 9 didn't have that, none of that. 10 And the bail was handled -- well, later they 11 had pretrial services. But initially you tried to 12 negotiate bail with the U.S. Attorney. Sometimes 13 there was a time factor and you continued bail 14 hearings because you don't have the facts; right? 15 And a lot of times the U.S. Attorney didn't have the 16 facts. 17 The Assistant U.S. Attorney appearing would 18 not necessarily be the one handling the case, and 19 the case agent wouldn't be there, and they'd have to 20 talk to the case agent. And sometimes if you wait 21 rather than just say I want a hundred thousand 22 dollar bail or whatever, the U.S. Attorney would 23 negotiate, after talking to the agent. And they got 24 to the point where they would. 25 So the Magistrate's appearance was very 64 |
1 important even if nothing very important is 2 happening. It established the first connection 3 between attorney and the client. 4 We also had, which I think's important, we had 5 CJA attorneys appear. We didn't appear with them 6 and say okay, we'll get you some lawyer. We made 7 sure we got, we hustled people over there so that 8 the initial contact was with the lawyer that was 9 going to handle it. Or if for some reason there was 10 objection, then we immediately got someone else. So 11 we didn't fool around with a lot of unnecessary 12 appearances by our staff who were not going to be 13 involved in a particular case. I don't think it's 14 appropriate, anyway. 15 Q. And at the meetings, do you recall stressing 16 it's really setting the tone for the defendant and 17 the attorney with respect to probation, the 18 Marshal's office, and other entities that are in 19 that Magistrate's courtroom? 20 A. Well, all of those things, plus, you know, the 21 other stress is you've got to be willing to try a 22 case. If you're willing to try a case -- if you are 23 a dump truck lawyer -- 24 Q. What's a dump truck lawyer? 25 A. Lawyer that always settles, always pleads out, 65 |
1 never goes to trial. Prosecution knows that. 2 They're not going to negotiate. They're not going 3 to settle at the same level as they will with some 4 attorney they know will say, "Go to hell, we'll try 5 this thing." All right. "I'll take my chances." 6 It ties them up. It ties resources up. 7 You never know what a jury's going to do. 8 They can hang up. I mean, I've lost them when I 9 shouldn't have, won them when I shouldn't have. Had 10 them hang up when I'm a dead bang loser. Had them 11 convict when I had a dead bang winner. I mean, you 12 never know what a jury's going to do. I love 13 juries, but they are really a crap shoot. But 14 skipping that aspect of it. 15 If you know you're dealing with a law firm 16 that will try a case, it makes a difference on 17 resolution. On so many cases. I mean, there's some 18 cases, like Squeaky Fromme, for example, there 19 wasn't going to be any resolution on Squeaky Fromme, 20 for God's sakes. 21 Q. Would you spell Squeaky Fromme's last name. 22 A. F-r-o-m-m-e. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Lynette is her first name. But in any event. 25 That kind of case whether you plead guilty or plead 66 |
1 not guilty or whatever you're going to do in a 2 case. Now, that one you're not going to settle, of 3 course. The President was involved. 4 Q. For the future members of the History Society 5 who might not be familiar with that, would you talk 6 a little bit about the Fromme case. How you first 7 entered into it. How it came about. And what 8 actions you took. What were the facts of the case 9 initially? 10 A. She stuck a gun at Gerald Ford, couple inches 11 from Gerald Ford's head in the park behind the 12 Capitol, with Secret Service. She was dressed in a 13 Red Riding Hood outfit. Secret Service let her walk 14 up to the President, and she pulled a trigger and 15 nothing happened. I briefly looked at a book on 16 Fromme you brought. It appeared what he's saying in 17 the book is not factually accurate. 18 But in any event, my recollection is there 19 were none in the chamber that clicked. And it's 20 also my impression from -- well, I handled the 21 matter pretrial. When I say I, Bob Holley and I 22 actually handled the case pretrial. And I got out 23 of it because well, nicely, it was quoted for lack 24 of rapport. 25 Fromme and I discussed it. I felt we had a 67 |
1 slight conflict in that I felt she had no intention 2 of harming the President. Which made a difference 3 between life and ten years. So life and ten years 4 is a slight difference. She was fairly young. 5 But in any event, she wanted to go to prison 6 and commiserate with Charlie Manson. I mean, that's 7 the way her thinking was. And had she wanted to 8 kill Gerald Ford, she would have. 9 Also one other thing we did in that case, with 10 her approval. She was a very cooperative client, by 11 the way. Reasonably intelligent. Probably took a 12 trip out on something, never got all the way back. 13 But skipping that aspect of it. Her mind had some 14 distorted thinking in it. 15 We had arranged for, with her permission, a 16 video examination. Gerald Ford, actually, in 17 Washington D.C. I think the book, I just read a 18 little bit of it, seemed to indicate he was here, 19 but that isn't true. I was the one that engineered 20 that. 21 And John Virga, we had John. Well, what I did 22 was we had five attorneys interview. John Virga was 23 one. Clyde Blackmon probably. Anyway, five of 24 ours. Some of the people didn't appear much on our 25 panel. I don't even know if they were on the panel, 68 |
1 actually. But in any event, they probably were. 2 But the point is that I knew she'd pick 3 John Virga because he was the best looking. And 4 that's what she did. She picked John Virga. And 5 John did as good a job as you can do, I guess. 6 Actually, I don't have any criticism of John on how 7 he handled the case. I think he handled it the only 8 way you could handle it. I think the outcome was 9 inevitable, frankly. I don't care if you could 10 dance on water. But I wasn't involved, after I got 11 out of it, I didn't have anything more to do with 12 it. 13 Q. You had several major cases in and about your 14 office in the '70s. One involved a woman named 15 Sandra Goode, G-o-o-d-e. Do you recall that case? 16 A. Well, I think Sandra Goode was paneled out, 17 wasn't it? 18 Q. Do you know who it was paneled out to? 19 A. I think it was some jackass that worked for me 20 at one time named Tedmon. 21 Q. No. We'll pass on the characterization. 22 A. Well, the truth, you know, truth isn't always 23 beautiful. 24 Q. I know. 25 A. I mean, I know Sandra Goode. I've met with 69 |
1 Sandra Good also. 2 Q. I think she was -- 3 A. Well, go ahead and ask me again. 4 Q. I refreshed your recollection. That was the 5 jackass's recall. Would you now tell us. 6 A. I thought you had left the office at the 7 time. Well, you know, actually, now that I think 8 about it, I think it was Sir William himself, 9 Bill Shubb. 10 Q. I believe that's correct. 11 A. I think it was. Yeah. 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Now, I knew her as well. Okay? Because of 14 Fromme. She was also an interesting lady. She had 15 been in my office, and I had that golden eagle that 16 the -- I don't know if I told you this story about 17 the Magistrate and the eagle and all that on the 18 tape. 19 Q. We don't have it. We'll have you do that. 20 A. Anyway, she was in my office, and there was 21 another lady with her. They were friends of 22 Fromme. Can't think of the other lady's name. 23 Anyway, they went bananas over the fact that I had 24 this golden eagle; right? Because, oh, I should be 25 shot because I had the golden eagle. Well, I 70 |
1 explained to them, sort of went along with them to 2 some extent. I didn't want to get shot, but I 3 didn't kill the golden eagle. And I wouldn't kill 4 an eagle, and so forth et cetera, et cetera, et 5 cetera. And that actually it was a bird forfeited 6 by Fish and Wildlife for the U.S. Department of 7 whatever it is. 8 Q. While we were on that, how did you get the 9 bird? 10 A. Well, I had ducks, too, you know. 11 Q. Well, I'm not here giving you the bird, by the 12 way. I'm asking how did you get the golden eagle. 13 A. Well, as I mentioned, it belonged to Fish and 14 Wildlife; right? They had forfeited it. Well, what 15 happened is before I received it, about 24 hours 16 before I received it, I was in the Magistrate's 17 court on a Fish and Wildlife violation of some 18 sort. 19 Q. Which magistrate? 20 A. Mix. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. And I was back in chambers, and she's got all 23 these stuffed critters that come from Fish and 24 Wildlife. I don't remember what was all, but there 25 was some birds and various things. I don't remember 71 |
1 what all she had. Her office was kind of full of 2 them; right? So I made some comment to her that, 3 you know, it might be some question whether you 4 should judge a Fish and Wildlife case with all this 5 here. It could be interpreted in the wrong way. 6 The next day the golden eagle and the duck 7 showed up. So I kept my mouth shut after that. 8 Q. Ultimately, a lot of this arose out of 9 seminars that you gave. How often did you determine 10 it was in the best interest of both your office's 11 personnel and panel to hold training seminars? 12 A. Well, do you have a sense of humor? We charge 13 a small amount to come to these things; right? And 14 we use that amount to help finance the annual 15 thank-God-we-made-it-through or sometimes referred 16 to as a Christmas party. So depending on how -- no, 17 I think we did them, we did them at least, I think 18 we did them, tried to do them annually because it 19 was an update. It was fairly informal. We charged 20 a modest amount depending. 21 We actually, we had some we didn't charge, but 22 depends, but, you know, we updated the syllabus, you 23 got the new syllabus with any changes in it in 24 reference to this. You know, like when pretrial 25 services came out we would have updated it and so 72 |
1 forth. We did all of that. 2 In addition to those seminars, the CJA, the 3 Criminal Justice Act people in Washington. Ted Lidz 4 was there originally. He was not the original guy, 5 but Ted Lidz, L-i-d-z -- 6 Q. L-i-d-z. 7 A. -- ran it for years. Anyway, there were 8 seminars for staff people, and I think maybe even 9 investigators, but I don't recall. I think 10 Dave Kraft went to one, but I don't recall that for 11 sure. But certainly Holley and all the assistants 12 went to seminars. I think they went to one down in 13 Texas. And they were sort of annual, plus it was a 14 nice interchange with some other people from other 15 areas to find out what's going on and get some lay 16 of the land as to what kind of case they handled, 17 what kind of dispositions they were getting. So you 18 got a comparison. 19 So there was a lot of importance to seminars 20 besides the technical material at the seminar. Just 21 the association of the attorneys gave you a national 22 view on how they treated drug cases in Texas 23 compared to California, for example, or things of 24 that sort. 25 Q. You mentioned you charged a fee to offset the 73 |
1 costs of what you call the Christmas party. How did 2 that program start? Because you became pretty well 3 known for those parties, I think. 4 A. Well, I should. They got up to about four or 5 five hundred people. We started July 1st, as I 6 recall, in 1971. The first six months was hell. 7 Okay? 8 Now, I'd been in the court system in 9 San Francisco in various capacities. There the 10 press corps and some others had a little less 11 elaborate but, anyway, had a little in-house booze 12 and things of that sort. Some hors d'oeuvres, 13 appetizers, whatever. And all the judges came 14 around, law clerks, clerks. It was a judicial 15 family thing. Okay? 16 By judicial family I mean Probation, U.S. 17 Attorney, later Federal Defender, later pretrial 18 services, clerk's office, court reporters, U.S. 19 Marshal. Anyway, all the people that work regularly 20 in the Federal Courthouse in reference to the court 21 system. That includes judges, law clerks, U.S. 22 Magistrates and their staff, and people like that. 23 That's what I call judicial family. Not any outside 24 people. 25 So the first year I said the hell with it. 74 |
1 So, you know, you're not supposed to have booze in 2 the building, and so I invited the U.S. Attorney. I 3 invited the judicial family, okay. Basically, when 4 I say everybody, I'm simply saying most of the 5 people from most of the offices but not every person 6 from the U.S. Attorney's Office, for example, and 7 not everybody from the clerk's office, for example. 8 But courtroom clerks certainly were there and so 9 forth. 10 All the judges were there except 11 Judge MacBride. Matter of fact, I think MacBride 12 only came to one Christmas party towards the end of 13 my -- just before I left, actually, when we were 14 over in Old Sac. His view was that my office 15 shouldn't be doing that. It was a matter of 16 propriety with him, and I can appreciate that. 17 But Judge Garcia and other people, Wilkins and 18 all those people came, mostly the law clerks and 19 people. 20 Q. Dick, if you'll recall at the close of the 21 last session you were beginning to discuss some of 22 the Christmas parties that you had and the reasons 23 for them and how they developed. Could you kind of 24 run by that again and then follow it up. 25 A. Well, as I mentioned, the original party was 75 |
1 when we were in the federal building, and the first 2 six months was very difficult, and I kind of said 3 the hell with it. So we had this little open house 4 for judicial family only. And which included the 5 U.S. Attorney's Office, clerk's office, probation, 6 Marshal, judges, clerks. But anyway, it was an 7 in-house. And we got a fairly good turnout. 8 Then subsequently we were moved, our office, 9 we got evicted, actually, but, anyway. 10 Q. How did that come about, Dick, the eviction; 11 do you know? 12 A. Well, I think, my recollection was that the 13 U.S. Attorney was expanding, and they needed space 14 and they were moving, going to take over the space 15 where we're located. And there really wasn't any 16 space, apparently, available in the federal 17 building. 18 So MacBride made a deal with GSA without 19 discussing it with me, so I was slightly annoyed 20 about that, actually. But in any event, I found 21 space over at Firehouse Alley in Old Sacramento. 22 Next to Laughs Unlimited, which probably was subtly 23 appropriate, but anyhow, we moved out. 24 Q. What was Laughs Unlimited, Dick? 25 A. They did little shows and things like that on 76 |
1 a humorous basis. 2 Anyway, after moving to Old Sacramento, we 3 expanded the annual party to include panel attorneys 4 and secretaries and people of that sort. Actually, 5 the party got up to probably at the end of it we 6 were doing like maybe 400 people. 7 We usually got a large group around noon, and 8 then secretaries and support people, and then around 9 3:00 or 4:00 judges and lawyers and people like that 10 would show up. So we had two groups, so to speak. 11 Some people came and stayed all day, as I recall. 12 But in any event, it served another purpose, 13 actually. And that is during the course of the year 14 there were certain antagonisms that developed 15 between our office, U.S. Attorney, and members of 16 the U.S. Attorney's Office and various agencies. 17 And it kind of had a healing process. We kind of 18 started out January 1st back on square one. So it 19 actually served a purpose other than just a social 20 event. 21 The other thing about it was that some of the 22 staff didn't want me to invite FBI or other people, 23 but my view was that it was open house, so the 24 invitation went to all the agencies. We usually got 25 some agents from all the agencies. And all the 77 |
1 judges came with the exception of Judge MacBride who 2 had some question about a federal agency, 3 essentially mine, in a judicial branch serving 4 liquor. But in any event, he did come towards the 5 end. 6 Also some of the people from Fresno used to 7 come up as well. So, actually, it served a very 8 good purpose. And it was supported by the panel 9 attorneys, and other people made contributions. 10 Some people donated liquor, some people donated 11 food, some people donated money. Because we 12 couldn't finance that large of a party. 13 I used to call up, oh, like Clyde Blackmon. 14 Clyde, around the 1st of December, and Clyde said, 15 "Okay. How much?" And that kind of thing. But 16 anyway, that's how. 17 Q. I think we all experienced that at one time or 18 another. 19 A. That's how we paid for it. Anyway, it served 20 a very good purpose. We had some great food, some 21 great times. 22 Q. Yes. I will add to that. After I left the 23 office and became a panel attorney, this for the 24 record, in my mind, was the largest Christmas party 25 that was ever done in Sacramento County by a law 78 |
1 firm. 2 Okay, Dick, take over. 3 A. I used to make 15 gallons of eggnog. 4 Q. I remember that. 5 A. But anyway, it served a very good purpose, 6 really. And you got to see some people you hardly 7 saw anymore, that kind of thing. 8 Q. And how did your staff participate with you? 9 Did they have certain functions, or did some people 10 do one part of it, some another part? How did that 11 work, Dick? 12 A. Well, Jane Itogawa, my administrative 13 assistant, for example, she made sushi. 14 Q. Very good, by the way. 15 A. Yes, very good. I made sure I got that before 16 anybody else did. And Mabel did some things. They 17 all contributed something. And some of the wives of 18 the attorneys or support people, they would make 19 various things, deviled eggs or that kind of thing. 20 Q. Well, you used to do a roast, didn't you? 21 A. I used to do a couple prime ribs. I did prime 22 ribs, and generally I did some prime ribs and 23 eggnog, that was generally my function. 24 And I think probably Mabel ran the panel, as a 25 practical matter, and I think she probably kind of 79 |
1 coordinated it, as I recall. 2 Q. Yeah, I think so. 3 A. Food, you know. And people brought things 4 too. We never knew quite what we were going to 5 have, but sometimes people brought particularly 6 cookies and things of that sort, but also people 7 sometimes would bring some kind of food item, and 8 we'd simply add it to the table. Anyway, it was a 9 hell of a party. What can I say. 10 Q. Yeah, I agree. 11 You know, when did you make your move from the 12 Federal Building to Old Sacramento, if you recall 13 the year? 14 A. No. We were in the -- I don't recall. We 15 were in the Federal Building a couple years or so, 16 but I have no recollection. 17 Q. So would you say sometime around 1975 maybe? 18 A. Could have been, but I don't recall 19 specifically. 20 Q. Okay. I left the office in 1978, if you 21 recall. 22 A. I don't recall that either. Those are details 23 that I don't recall particularly. 24 Q. Who did you pick to replace me as your chief 25 assistant? 80 |
1 A. Unfortunately, Art Ruthenbeck. 2 Q. How did that come about? 3 A. Art was in the Federal Defender's Office in 4 San Francisco. Jim Hewitt called me up and said 5 that he had Art Ruthenbeck and he was a pretty good 6 man and so forth and so on. So that's how that 7 happened. And Jim was a Federal Defender in 8 Northern District. 9 Q. Now, during that period of time following my 10 leaving and Ruthenbeck taking over, did you have 11 some form of litigation with the Sacramento County 12 Sheriff's Department? 13 A. Yes. Well, we affectionately refer to it as a 14 jail suit. Or they later said I was trying to build 15 a Hilton for the prisoners. But anyway, what 16 happened was jail conditions were overcrowded and 17 quite poor. Visitation between attorneys was poor, 18 et cetera, and I had complained to the Marshal who 19 housed federal prisoners there and the FBI and the 20 judges, and they all sort of brushed me off. 21 So I had a client who was a minor client, kind 22 of a burglar-type guy. I forget what he was charged 23 with, not too old, hung himself in the jail. So I 24 said the hell with it. So I authorized 25 Art Ruthenbeck to file the action. 81 |
1 Art collected from John Cleary and other 2 people in the system some jail-type lawsuits that 3 were available that had been filed in other areas. 4 Anyway, he put together the lawsuit and filed it, 5 and actually he handled the jail suit through 6 judgment, and about that time he left. So actually 7 we had an ongoing administrative role with it. It 8 was a continuing jurisdiction case. And the sheriff 9 said a lot of bad things about me during that. 10 Q. Did you have any face-to-face meetings with 11 the sheriff at that time? 12 A. I did not. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. However, what happened is they got a 15 several-million-dollar grant to build a new jail. 16 And instead of being low grade, I suddenly became a 17 hero. Actually, they made me an honorary deputy 18 sheriff. 19 Q. And you have that here. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In your home. 22 A. And the sheriff, was a different sheriff, but 23 the sheriff when I retired gave me a plaque that 24 among other things said to a good friend and worthy 25 adversary, so. They were never quite in compliance 82 |
1 with the jail condition suit, but my view was if 2 there was substantial compliance and good faith, I 3 never called them on it. 4 They had one section they wanted amended, I 5 don't remember what it was. I told them I wouldn't 6 stipulate because I thought I had a duty to discuss 7 it with inmates and there's too many and they 8 wouldn't agree, anyway. So I told them that if they 9 filed it, I would take no position, knowing 10 Judge MacBride as I do or the Court as well as I 11 did, I knew the judge would grant it if I didn't 12 take a position on it. Which he did, he granted it 13 from the bench. So that was the only change, and I 14 don't remember what that was exactly. 15 Q. There was a case which had some notoriety, 16 Dick, that you participated in. It was the 17 so-called Chilton case. Can you describe the case 18 and what happened. 19 A. Well, that was an unlawful flight to avoid 20 prosecution. Chilton, it's my recollection he had 21 embezzled, accused of embezzling funds from the 22 teachers' pension fund. And he had a lot of money 23 or whatever. Anyway, he wanted to come in. I don't 24 think Chilton called me. I think some attorney 25 called me and asked me if I would handle it. And I 83 |
1 said yeah. Well, I said yes. 2 Anyway, the FBI found out about it. How they 3 found out, I don't know. I don't recall that. And 4 so they were critical. They felt that I had a duty 5 and obligation to tell them where Chilton was. 6 Actually, I didn't know, but I told them they could 7 go fuck themselves, and laid out the ethical 8 obligations I had. And I did bring Chilton in. 9 Matter of fact, there's some humor to it. I 10 had a Fresno office at this time. And close to the 11 Fresno office there is a motel where Assistant U.S. 12 Attorneys and myself and other people stayed when we 13 went down to Fresno because it was a block or two 14 from the Federal Courthouse. 15 I was walking. I was meeting Chilton, oh, 16 1:30, 2:00 o'clock, I guess, in the afternoon. 17 While I was walking in, I think it was Greg Hollows, 18 he was civil. I met him. He was walking out of the 19 building, and we stopped and chatted for a moment, 20 and Chilton was up in the hotel and gave me the 21 signal that he was there while I was talking to 22 Hollows. 23 Hollows learned about that later. I don't 24 know how he did that, but he always kind of chided 25 me about the fact that I was going to meet the guy 84 |
1 right behind his back, so to speak. 2 Anyway, that's about all there was to it. He 3 came in, and then he went over to state. I don't 4 know what happened to him. 5 Q. After Ruthenbeck left, who did you appoint, if 6 you recall, as your next chief assistant? 7 A. I think Carl Larson. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Carl was chief assistant when I left. I think 10 Carl. 11 Q. Okay. Dick, I recall when I was your chief 12 assistant at one time we were having a discussion, 13 and we were talking about one of the requirements or 14 capabilities, should be the capabilities of a good 15 criminal defense lawyer, and I recall you very 16 clearly saying to me really one of the secrets of 17 being a good criminal defense lawyer is to have the 18 ability to coordinate a lot of other agencies or 19 people's activities who really, as you said, don't 20 give a shit about your client. Could you kind of 21 expand on that, because that had kind of an 22 impression on me. 23 A. Well, number one, I was Federal Defender, so I 24 had more interest perhaps than a person who just 25 represents a particular defendant on a particular 85 |
1 occasion. But you do have to coordinate the 2 expedite, the bail hearing, for example, which 3 involved the U.S. Magistrate, the U.S. Attorney, and 4 the U.S. Marshal in terms of getting the individual 5 over. And they would whine about certain kind of 6 how come you're having this hearing at 3:00 in the 7 afternoon kind of thing. But so you have to 8 influence those things. And this was preceding 9 pretrial services. 10 Sometimes the Court would ask with permission 11 to have probation officer do a sketch on the 12 individual in terms of verification of some 13 matters. Occasionally, the U.S. Attorney would do 14 that as well. 15 But so you have to coordinate all those 16 focused in order to get people thinking in terms of 17 release. And eventually you do that enough times 18 and then more and more release is accepted and 19 conditions are imposed, travel restrictions, for 20 example, monetary for example, things of that sort. 21 So that we were able to get more and more people 22 released pretrial. 23 And it's much better to have a client 24 released, improved the settlement. Most cases got 25 resolved, as a practical matter. If you have a 86 |
1 client out, it creates a different attitude in the 2 prosecution's mind, and you could get a better 3 result. As well as the judge. After all he's out, 4 anyway. Why put him back in jail argument. If it's 5 not too severe. If it's too severe, he probably 6 wouldn't have been out, anyway. 7 But so those are activities that have to be 8 controlled. You have to make sure the clerk's 9 available and the Magistrate's acceptable, and you 10 have to orchestrate all those. And after a while it 11 became more accepted to do those kind of things. 12 And bail hearings frequently would be put over a day 13 or so in order to put a package together. And that 14 came about primarily because of the influence of the 15 defender's office. 16 Q. And did you not transmit that thought 17 processes through some of the seminars that you held 18 and meetings? 19 A. Well, course with CJA attorneys, they work 20 through our office. And sometimes we actually 21 appeared on bail hearings if the CJA attorney for 22 whatever reason wasn't available, we sometimes would 23 make that appearance on the bail only. 24 And then also our offices were available to 25 the private sector, private being attorneys 87 |
1 representing defendants who were not on a retainer 2 basis. So a lot of them used our office or they 3 certainly used our syllabus and had discussions with 4 staff people, myself, and other attorneys. And 5 out-of-town attorneys sometimes would use our office 6 to leave briefcases and what have you. 7 So there was a coordination between the 8 retained attorney, which was a small percentage, and 9 our office. So we were kind of the cornerstone of 10 criminal defense for all cases. 11 Q. Did you find that even attorneys who were not 12 on your panel were still interested in the seminars 13 you put on just by way of attending and gathering 14 information? 15 A. I think most of the criminal attorneys who 16 were interested in federal came to the seminar. I 17 don't recall whether we had that cross-pollination 18 thing with Ken Peterson and stuff, which I hated. I 19 mention his name because he was the man who was 20 doing it primarily. I don't know whether any of the 21 assistants actually came to the seminar. 22 Now, Assistant U.S. Attorneys did appear to 23 make presentations on behalf of the U.S. Attorney's 24 Office at our seminars. In other words, I had 25 someone from the U.S. Attorney's Office and 88 |
1 sometimes the U.S. Magistrate. 2 I wanted to have a total perspective. So 3 frequently at the seminar we would have somebody 4 from the U.S. Attorney's Office, Criminal Division 5 appear. Generally not the U.S. Attorney, but the 6 head of the criminal division or somebody that 7 practiced criminal law routinely would be invited, 8 and they generally participated. 9 Q. For the record, who was Ken Peterson at that 10 time? 11 A. He was a Deputy District Attorney in 12 Sacramento County. 13 Q. And how much communication did you have with 14 him on this, a significant amount or small amount? 15 A. Other than yelling at him all the time, I 16 don't recall much communication. And I hated the 17 cross-pollination. I thought it was wrong. I 18 occasionally could be vocal, as I recall. So on 19 that subject I was somewhat vocal. 20 Q. As we're sitting here talking right now you're 21 expressing some very interesting thoughts, and they 22 don't seem to come across as Judge Wilkins says on 23 the tape this curmudgeon out there. Was that a 24 device, or do you feel that was just part of how you 25 like to handle things? 89 |
1 A. Probably the way I am. 2 Q. Well, you were a personality, Dick, you know 3 that. 4 A. Well, you know, when you're inside the system, 5 you see it very differently than when you're 6 standing outside the system. For example, the 7 question of who gets prosecuted and who doesn't get 8 prosecuted is determined by the United States 9 Attorney's Office. 10 Most cases ended up before a Grand Jury with 11 the U.S. Attorney and an agent coming in and saying, 12 Joe Schmuckogrubber did this, and he should be 13 indicted on 19 counts. That could take, oh, if it 14 was a very complex case, it'd probably take 16 15 minutes; right? You know, you could probably get 16 Buffy the dog indicted in front of a Federal Grand 17 Jury. I mean, it's laughable to think it's somehow 18 an adversarial thought process that results in the 19 right kind of charges. 20 So the U.S. Attorney simply makes a decision, 21 and they aren't always consistent. Agents have a 22 lot of influence regardless of whether they're FBI, 23 DEA, or whatever. And sometimes what they want has 24 to do with not so much the criminal offense but the 25 aggravation or the negative interaction that 90 |
1 occurred between the DA and the particular 2 individual. 3 In other words, they were ticked off at the 4 guy, they might push for additional charges. 5 Because they know if there are more charges, the 6 chances of resolving it at a higher level is 7 better. The more charges you have, the better 8 position the U.S. Attorney is sure of. Dismiss five 9 counts, well, probably should have been charged with 10 one count to start with. And now you're down to 11 two, and two makes a difference in terms of 12 probation attitude and the judge's attitude in terms 13 of resolution. 14 So those are all significant matters, and U.S. 15 Attorney called the shot. 16 Q. If you were teaching a young attorney what his 17 role would be in representing someone who has to 18 appear before the Grand Jury, what would you tell 19 him he could and could not do? 20 A. I'd tell him he couldn't do a hell of a lot. 21 First place, he's outside the grand jury room. 22 Secondly, other than telling somebody to take the 23 Fifth Amendment, you don't really represent someone, 24 to be honest with you. You simply are there as 25 window dressing for a little advisory session just 91 |
1 to protect the record for the government 2 prosecution. 3 So I don't think that there's much to do other 4 than some witnesses are there to testify with a 5 settled arrangement with the United States Attorney 6 as far as their own prosecution is concerned. Now, 7 to that extent they have served a purpose. But as 8 far as just representing a witness, the attorney 9 doesn't have much role other than say don't say 10 anything, or keep your mouth shut and make sure you 11 listen to the question carefully, and don't 12 volunteer anything. A few advisory things of that 13 sort, but it's not much representation. 14 Q. Dick, in 1984 there was some changes in the 15 sentencing system. Do you recall those changes 16 coming about? 17 A. Well, I don't recall the year. As you know, 18 I'm not very good at that. You're talking about the 19 sentencing guidelines. 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. That caused me to retire, ultimately, from the 22 practice of law. My view is that first place, 23 again, we're back understanding the system. The 24 government, the U.S. Attorney's Office, makes a 25 decision on sentences, on charges. Those charges 92 |
1 translate, ultimately, in what the individual is 2 sentenced on. So the question of sentencing 3 guidelines had to do with back giving more and more 4 authority to the U.S. Attorney, and they already 5 have too much to start with. So in that sense it 6 was inappropriate. 7 Secondly, as much as the federal judges are 8 all over the ball park on sentencing. I mean, you 9 have conservative, moderate, you know. We had a lot 10 of visiting judges, like when I was there, I got 11 stuck with a lot of visiting judges. 12 Irving Ben Cooper, who is really an interesting 13 character. 14 Q. Tell us about Mr. Ben Cooper as a judge. 15 A. Well, he is senior judge out of New York, as I 16 recall, Southern District, I guess. First place, 17 we're kind of casual out here by comparison to some 18 Federal Courts in some areas. Casual in the sense 19 not that we don't wear ties, but kind of milling 20 around and doing this in the courtroom and somebody, 21 U.S. Attorney and the defense attorney might be 22 chatting about this and that and the other thing 23 when the judge comes in. 24 Well, in Cooper's case, first, everybody had 25 to be in their place. At first we didn't know 93 |
1 necessarily what that meant, but we learned very 2 quickly. But anyway, you could see him standing out 3 the door just prancing around waiting to come in 4 because we were not quite -- 5 Q. In place? 6 A. We weren't quite in place. So that was -- 7 took place. Then during the trial, I guess Shubb 8 tried the case. I forget what the case was. 9 Anyway, my client had committed about 14 perjury 10 charges. So I made a deal to settle it for X, Y, Z, 11 or whatever it was with no perjury. So we pled out 12 before it went to jury. 13 Now, I don't remember what the probation 14 recommendation was or what Bill Shubb was asking. 15 But when Cooper sentenced a guy, he stood up and 16 said things like, "On the one hand." 17 Q. And he raised his right arm. 18 A. And he'd raise his hand and say, "You were in 19 the military. On the other hand, you got this 20 criminal record" and crap. Anyway, it went on and 21 on and on. I guess the right arm was the good parts 22 and the left arm was the bad parts. He was pretty 23 consistent about that. 24 So he gets all done with this. Hell, I 25 thought he was going to put me in jail, too, the way 94 |
1 he was carrying on. He gave the guy 18 months, 2 which was better than any judge I would have gotten 3 in the Eastern District. 4 You know Manny Real was an another crazy guy. 5 Andy Hauk, God almighty. Anyway, so you never 6 know. 7 But the point is in reference to guidelines, 8 the power has shifted more and more to the U.S. 9 Attorney's office. And the U.S. Attorney's Office 10 is influenced by the agencies, the investigative 11 agencies. 12 And the other thing that happens as a result 13 of that is that some person -- let's say you got a 14 marijuana smuggling case. You know, I think 15 marijuana ought to be legal, anyway, but skipping 16 that. You had some person that's kind of a mule, a 17 person not very involved and can't contribute very 18 much to the U.S. Attorney in terms of making a deal 19 to testify in return for a soft sentence. So you 20 end up with some guy or some lady that's more 21 involved making an arrangement, and the guy or lady 22 that's not involved gets more sentence than the 23 people who are heavily involved. And that comes 24 about because of sentence guidelines. 25 I know the Court can vary it. But more and 95 |
1 more they get used to it, and they're not going to 2 do that. I mean, eventually, I think that's the way 3 it is now, probably. I'm not practicing anymore, 4 but that would be my expectation, that as it goes 5 down the line, becomes more and more accepted, it 6 makes it easier on the judge because he doesn't have 7 to think about anything, as a practical matter. 8 And probation, pretty soon it gets to be rote, 9 and pretty soon you punch in this number and you 10 have computerized sentencing, as a practical 11 matter. You know that's wrong, we're dealing with 12 human beings. And we put too many people in jail 13 for too long a time, in any event. So you lose some 14 of that. In spite of the fact that judges are all 15 over the ball park, give me a judge any day. I'll 16 take my chance with them, you know. 17 Sherrill Halbert is very more severe-type 18 sentencer than Judge Karlton or Judge MacBride, for 19 example. But nevertheless, I would prefer that over 20 the sentencing guidelines. Probably get a better 21 deal with Halbert outside the guidelines than if you 22 were within them. 23 So, you know, there's no reason to put people 24 in jail for these long periods of time. It's 25 stupid. It's very expensive, it's not cost 96 |
1 effective as far as a human is concerned. We should 2 be concerned about keeping people free, not 3 incarcerated. 4 Well, I decided to retire because the -- I had 5 retired from the Federal Defender's Office. I had 6 with military and everything else in age, I actually 7 retired. And I continued to do criminal defense 8 work in the Federal Court, much of it panel, 9 actually, because most people can't afford real 10 lawyers, so to speak. 11 However, with the sentencing guidelines the 12 opportunity to be effective, in my view, 13 diminished. I became more of a facilitator, if you 14 will, than a criminal defense attorney. I just 15 found that unacceptable, and as a result I quit the 16 business. I could have gone into something else, I 17 guess, but I was in a position to leave. And I 18 don't regret leaving, I might add. 19 Q. Dick, we're kind of getting toward the end 20 here. I was asking what -- looking back on your 21 career, which spanned a large number of years, a 22 large part of your life. And the different things 23 you did, built your ideas and concepts, is there 24 anything you would have liked to have changed in the 25 time you started as a young lawyer and all the way 97 |
1 to retirement? 2 A. Oh, I probably would just focus on the Federal 3 Defender. I moved around a lot because of 4 opportunities and money needs with the family and so 5 forth. And I don't know, I had an experience that 6 most people don't have. Whether I should have 7 stayed somewhere longer or whatever, but I'm not 8 much for looking back in that regard. But as far as 9 Federal Defender is concerned, other than hiring 10 you, you know, that ought to be reexamined. 11 Q. Well, I expect that. 12 A. But the Federal Defender developed into an 13 influence in the criminal world, criminal defense in 14 Sacramento. Our office was definitely an 15 influence. The U.S. Attorney would consider what I 16 might do or not do if they were going to introduce 17 some new policies. And they introduced a policy or 18 two, I don't remember what they were, they backed 19 off on because I made it clear that wasn't going to 20 wash. 21 But we had developed a very good law office. 22 It's my approach to it was that I didn't tell 23 lawyers how to practice law, taught them what the 24 law was, et cetera and let them develop their own 25 personality. I had my own way of doing things, and 98 |
1 not everybody could get away with what I did, 2 frankly. But so everybody had their own style, and 3 they were allowed to do that because then you get 4 the maximum use out of a criminal defense attorney. 5 There's no right way to do things. You know, 6 as far as motions are concerned, of course, that's 7 standard. But the personality of the individual has 8 a lot to do with what may or may not happen in a 9 particular case. 10 Carl Larson was an attorney who generally 11 speaking resolved matters. All right. Trying 12 wasn't his cup of tea, and we assigned cases 13 accordingly. You know, if I wanted to annoy the 14 U.S. Attorney or the Court, I'd just send Holley in, 15 as a practical matter, or myself and so forth. 16 But in any event, so the selection of cases 17 came about primarily because of that. And 18 Mabel Adams actually did most of that. I didn't 19 pick and chose cases. I took Lynette Fromme because 20 it was a heavyweight case. And Bob Holley and I 21 worked it jointly, actually. 22 In any event, then probably the greatest error 23 I've made, one that I do in fact regret, was putting 24 Ruthenbeck in as Federal Defender, which I did. 25 There's no question I did that. 99 |
1 I had been reappointed three times. I could 2 have been reappointed again. There was never any 3 controversy about my appointment. 4 And I told Art I would support him. I'm kind 5 of an old union man. And I told him I would support 6 him on the basis he not fire the attorneys and 7 personnel and live without, because nobody actually 8 had protection. I mean, it was at the discretion of 9 the -- he agreed to that. And then promptly fired 10 all the attorneys except Larson. I think support 11 staff he kept. But he fired all the attorneys, 12 Fresno and Sacramento. 13 Then he was into creating a dynasty of some 14 sort with adding people. Well, my view is you keep 15 a good panel going. Panel served two purposes. It 16 was an interaction between the staff people that 17 kept everybody a little more on their toes and made 18 you had an aggressive competition going, and 19 therefore the defendants got served better both by 20 panel and staff attorneys. 21 Additionally, the filings, criminal filings 22 fluctuate. So if the filings went down, you could 23 make less appointments and deal with that problem 24 without being overstaffed. And then you were 25 obligated. I didn't have a legal obligation to do 100 |
1 25/75, which is what I worked at. And I could have 2 a little less, a little more, for that matter. So 3 that was important. 4 Ruthenbeck cut back on the staff to enlarge 5 his own people. I guess he felt -- I don't know 6 what he felt, because needless to say, he and I 7 didn't discuss much. He was perfectly aware of my 8 view of him. 9 And I don't think Quinn Denvir's a damn bit 10 better, frankly. But I guess if they had bigger 11 offices, they're more important people in their own 12 mind. Unfortunately, the defendants suffer, the 13 system suffers, and the Federal Defender's Office 14 becomes just another big old Public Defender's 15 Office. The dump truck warms up, and away it goes. 16 And you're more interested in stats and things 17 of that sort than you are the individual. My focus 18 was on the defendant. I think that's been lost, 19 frankly. And I don't see the purpose of it. And I 20 don't remember what Ruthenbeck did, but I know 21 Quinn Denvir doesn't do much in reference to being 22 in court himself. 23 Now, I think in order to understand what's 24 going on in the courthouse, the Federal Defender 25 should carry about a 50 percent caseload. And not 101 |
1 just the big cases. He should or she should do 2 cases pretty much as staff does or at least the 3 senior people. Which is what I did. So that's, 4 that's the one great regret. Fortunately, I take 5 some, not much, but it made me feel a little better 6 that Ruthenbeck got fired. But skipping that aspect 7 of it. 8 Another thing that Denvir did that I find 9 mildly amusing. I don't know if this means much on 10 this tape. But last year they had an 11 E. Richard Walker Memorial Golf Tournament sponsored 12 by the Federal Defender's Office. And I learned 13 about it, actually, from Barry Nix personally. He 14 used to be on my staff. He thought it was mildly 15 amusing. He wanted to know if it was a living or 16 dead memorial. So I called up. I found out who was 17 handling it in the Federal Defender's Office. I 18 don't remember who it was, some young person. I 19 don't know if he's a lawyer or not even, but not 20 that that's relevant. 21 So I called him and asked him if it was a 22 living or dead memorial. Then I told him who I 23 was. And I said, you know, you bastards didn't even 24 invite me. And even after the conversation they 25 didn't invite me, and they didn't get permission to 102 |
1 use my name. And I don't like my name being 2 associated with Denvir and company, frankly. 3 So I would appreciate -- if they do it again, 4 I'm not going to do anything about it, but I thought 5 it was wrong. Showed no class, frankly. Lack of 6 sensitivity, how's that. 7 And my recollection, Steve Bauer, who I kept 8 alive for a long time, I think he might have won. 9 He was one of the winners, anyway. I don't know 10 what you win but -- 11 Anyway, that was the greatest error I ever 12 made was supporting Ruthenbeck for Federal 13 Defender. I think he took a good law office and 14 made it into an administrative, bureaucratic 15 operation which does not serve the criminal justice 16 system well. 17 Q. Any further comments you care to make while we 18 wrap this up, Dick? 19 A. Thank God I made it. 20 Q. Well, I'll make a final comment. 21 I worked for Dick for approximately six years 22 as a chief assistant. And I learned an enormous 23 amount about how to be a criminal defense lawyer, 24 and I think that same thing can be said for anyone 25 who actually had an opportunity to study under him 103 |
1 or work under him. 2 And with that I want to thank you, Dick, for 3 participating in this. The Historical Society will 4 be very happy with what we've done. I think it will 5 have an understanding of you which it may not have 6 had before. And I really appreciate your 7 cooperation. And on behalf of the entire system, 8 including Chief Judge Shubb, I want to thank you. 9 Thank you very much. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 RUTH CRAWFORD TRANSCRIPTION (530) 577-4008 |
© 2003 United States District Court for the Eastern District of California Historical Society.